Tom Davies

[Eggs]

One game & the lad ran the second furthest of any player on the pitch he worked his socks off but was awful.
His head was gone you could see it after 5 minutes his control is exceptional but he couldn't trap a 5 yard pass. Barry costs us the game not Barkley.

Barkley was screaming at him to push up

...I'm not saying Barkley cost us the game. The McCarthy injury was important but the signs were already there in the last 15mins of the first half that we were sitting in. The back four and DMs actually coped ok but when you continue to knock on the door it's very likely you'll get a break and that's what happened. We might have coped better with more energy than Barry but our wide players failed to push the full backs towards their own goal, Barkley was totally ineffective and Lukaku didn't do enough for the cause up top. My opinion is it was those 4 offensive positions that informed the course of the game.

 

[PhilM]

It's not an opinion its a statistical fact so there is no interpretation required a simple measurement of distance covered of 22 players he came second in a game of football still played rubbish but the fact remains to suggest he doesn't run is wrong

Unfortunately the crux of the matter is that for all that he may run, Ross is quite regularly a few yard behind the play trying to catch up.

 

[Simon baker]

Unfortunately the crux of the matter is that for all that he may run, Ross is quite regularly a few yard behind the play trying to catch up.

Don't disagree just infuriates me that people are slating him when they don't have their facts right.
If we are going to criticise let's make it constructive & get the facts right.

To often opionikns are portrayed as facts & then become truths which is very dangerous as it is sticking.

 

[PhilM]

Don't disagree just infuriates me that people are slating him when they don't have their facts right.
If we are going to criticise let's make it constructive & get the facts right.

To often opionikns are portrayed as facts & then become truths which is very dangerous as it is sticking.

He's not gone as far as become a pariah for some fans, but Ross certainly has began to divide the fan base - some just criticisms, others unjust.

Personally, Ross has developed his play over the past few months, especially his movement and effort, however memories die hard.

And as there are still a fair few underlying deficiencies to his game that are so infuriating people will fall back into the spiral of old criticisms.

Anyway back on topic.... I'm hopeful that Davies will get some more game time against Hull as McCarthy is still unavailable due to injury.

 

[Simon baker]

...I'm not saying Barkley cost us the game. The McCarthy injury was important but the signs were already there in the last 15mins of the first half that we were sitting in. The back four and DMs actually coped ok but when you continue to knock on the door it's very likely you'll get a break and that's what happened. We might have coped better with more energy than Barry but our wide players failed to push the full backs towards their own goal, Barkley was totally ineffective and Lukaku didn't do enough for the cause up top. My opinion is it was those 4 offensive positions that informed the course of the game.

Do you not think The fact we automatically dropped 15 yards deeper once Barry came on meant the attacking players were isolated & had far to much ground to cover. Appreciate they were all poor but our shape made it very very difficult for them.

 

[Eggs]

Do you not think The fact we automatically dropped 15 yards deeper once Barry came on meant the attacking players were isolated & had far to much ground to cover. Appreciate they were all poor but our shape made it very very difficult for them.

...I think the evidence of games without Barry illustrates the DMs can play in more advanced positions, that is a perfectly valid point. When Davies came on at Leicester I commented how he and Gueye worked as a pair much further up the pitch than the Barry/Gueye axis. For those old enough to remember, think how Reid and Bracewell hunted in a pair all over the pitch.

Saying that, in the Derby Valencia and Lennon failed to go past their full backs and work the huge space behind them. It's what wingers do. Barkley was a boy v man against Henderson, he rarely went beyond him. Lukaku should've gone to war with the CBs, leading the line and tirelessly running the channels to hold the ball up, win free kicks and relieve pressure.

One final point, the writing was on the wall in the last 15mins of the first half that we were sitting back. That was before Barry was on the pitch but I agree that the McCarthy injury didn't help.

 

[catcherintherye]

...I think the evidence of games without Barry illustrates the DMs can play in more advanced positions, that is a perfectly valid point. When Davies came on at Leicester I commented how he and Gueye worked as a pair much further up the pitch than the Barry/Gueye axis. For those old enough to remember, think how Reid and Bracewell hunted in a pair all over the pitch.

Saying that, in the Derby Valencia and Lennon failed to go past their full backs and work the huge space behind them. It's what wingers do. Barkley was a boy v man against Henderson, he rarely went beyond him. Lukaku should've gone to war with the CBs, leading the line and tirelessly running the channels to hold the ball up, win free kicks and relieve pressure.

One final point, the writing was on the wall in the last 15mins of the first half that we were sitting back. That was before Barry was on the pitch but I agree that the McCarthy injury didn't help.

A fair post. The McCarthy change accelerated the process as opposed to made all the difference. We were tiring and Liverpool were starting to break our press by playing longer passes to Clyne.

How far do you think though, that Barkley's position is now indicative of his performance level? My own view is, he is a very erratic, inconsistent and uncomfortable number 10. He doesn't grow into the freedom it allows him, it seems to confuse him and take away his abilities to play on instinct.
In the 8, playing a bit deeper in the thrust of the game, making more decisions on instinct and reflex and involving himself more is where he seems happier. Whether he can build in the discipline to his game to do it effectively is the question?

It seemed to me against Arsenal he played deeper, while against Liverpool he played further forward. I don't know if it was tactical, or just something he did himself. However for me he needs to play deeper. What do you think?

 

[Eggs]

A fair post. The McCarthy change accelerated the process as opposed to made all the difference. We were tiring and Liverpool were starting to break our press by playing longer passes to Clyne.

How far do you think though, that Barkley's position is now indicative of his performance level? My own view is, he is a very erratic, inconsistent and uncomfortable number 10. He doesn't grow into the freedom it allows him, it seems to confuse him and take away his abilities to play on instinct.
In the 8, playing a bit deeper in the thrust of the game, making more decisions on instinct and reflex and involving himself more is where he seems happier. Whether he can build in the discipline to his game to do it effectively is the question?

It seemed to me against Arsenal he played deeper, while against Liverpool he played further forward. I don't know if it was tactical, or just something he did himself. However for me he needs to play deeper. What do you think?

...a few have made similar points, I think it was @roydo who said he is best when he doesn't have to think and @Joey66 also suggests Barkley would be more effective in a deeper role. It could well be the case, but RK appears to want him to play a certain way in his system and Barkley is struggling to do that. Did he not play the no10 role effectively for the first half of last season, the difference being he was given no responsibility to track back or close down?

The players we are linked with suggests RK has others in mind for the deeper position (Schneiderlin).

 

[maccavennie]

...I'm not saying Barkley cost us the game. The McCarthy injury was important but the signs were already there in the last 15mins of the first half that we were sitting in. The back four and DMs actually coped ok but when you continue to knock on the door it's very likely you'll get a break and that's what happened. We might have coped better with more energy than Barry but our wide players failed to push the full backs towards their own goal, Barkley was totally ineffective and Lukaku didn't do enough for the cause up top. My opinion is it was those 4 offensive positions that informed the course of the game.

Spot on and I've said this time and time again. Our most creative players are the ones up top as in Rom, Ross, Kev, Del, Bolasie and they just don't work hard enough imo as a unit and this has caused us issues for nigh on 2 and a half seasons. The gap between midfield and up top is massive because the players up top aren't on their toes and are too high up the pitch to begin with so when the ball comes bouncing back the midfielders don't have a chance to push on as they are still set in their defensive shape.

I'm not surprised to see results improve with Lennon in eggs. Del is a far superior player than Lennon and Lennon doesn't have an end product but what he does have is discipline, knows his position, protects his full back whilst all the time the opposition full back is weary of his pace.

On the other side Kev or Del are much of a muchness.

I'm a firm believer you defend from the front and that's why the scruffs across the park are doing so well, their top 3 players are hunting in packs and it's relentless and the turn over of possession happens much quicker.

 

[McBain]

Barry brings a calmness with his experience but Davies just looks like an Evertonian. The times he gets on the park the dynamic changes and we start playing like I haven't seen in an age. There will be a few penalties in his locker but I look forward to him filling out the shirt in the next couple of years. Proper player in there.

 

[mightymoyes]

...a few have made similar points, I think it was @roydo who said he is best when he doesn't have to think and @Joey66 also suggests Barkley would be more effective in a deeper role. It could well be the case, but RK appears to want him to play a certain way in his system and Barkley is struggling to do that. Did he not play the no10 role effectively for the first half of last season, the difference being he was given no responsibility to track back or close down?

The players we are linked with suggests RK has others in mind for the deeper position (Schneiderlin).

just have to think back to how he played in the 3-3 derby a few years back when he was deeper. unfortunately performances like that are becoming the exception these days.

 

[catcherintherye]

...a few have made similar points, I think it was @roydo who said he is best when he doesn't have to think and @Joey66 also suggests Barkley would be more effective in a deeper role. It could well be the case, but RK appears to want him to play a certain way in his system and Barkley is struggling to do that. Did he not play the no10 role effectively for the first half of last season, the difference being he was given no responsibility to track back or close down?

The players we are linked with suggests RK has others in mind for the deeper position (Schneiderlin).

You make some good points, and I do agree that Koeman is looking to buy in there which is not good for Ross. The first half of last season does counter what I am saying. I don't really have any clear cut answer to that question. I can only go on what my eyes tell me, which is that he looks uncomfortable playing as a number 10 and looks far happier deeper. Just his body language and how he holds himself.

He had a great run last season. I can only speculate why it would be the case. I think we were completely gung ho and were actually performing very well for the time which suited him. I also think we should say, in that great run, how many games did he actually control and dominate? He scored a lot of goals and made goals, but I wouldn't say he was integral to how we played.

If you compare to Arsenal this season, or in Martinez's first season against Liverpool and Arsenal in that run for him I think you saw Barkley at another level altogether. To coin a cliché he "ran the game". He obviously has abilities to shoot and pass so will always get assists and goals playing further forward but never looked comfortable to me. As the performances declined alongside his own performances and fitness so too have the goals and assists dried up. I think we now see what the goals and assists masked last season- that Barkley is not a very comfortable number 10 and it was a failed conversion.

I don't know if he can hack it as a number 8. I do think he has to sink or swim in that position though. The numbers indicate last season was his best but my own eyes tell me his best performances have come deeper.

 

[Simon baker]

You make some good points, and I do agree that Koeman is looking to buy in there which is not good for Ross. The first half of last season does counter what I am saying. I don't really have any clear cut answer to that question. I can only go on what my eyes tell me, which is that he looks uncomfortable playing as a number 10 and looks far happier deeper. Just his body language and how he holds himself.

He had a great run last season. I can only speculate why it would be the case. I think we were completely gung ho and were actually performing very well for the time which suited him. I also think we should say, in that great run, how many games did he actually control and dominate? He scored a lot of goals and made goals, but I wouldn't say he was integral to how we played.

If you compare to Arsenal this season, or in Martinez's first season against Liverpool and Arsenal in that run for him I think you saw Barkley at another level altogether. To coin a cliché he "ran the game". He obviously has abilities to shoot and pass so will always get assists and goals playing further forward but never looked comfortable to me. As the performances declined alongside his own performances and fitness so too have the goals and assists dried up. I think we now see what the goals and assists masked last season- that Barkley is not a very comfortable number 10 and it was a failed conversion.

I don't know if he can hack it as a number 8. I do think he has to sink or swim in that position though. The numbers indicate last season was his best but my own eyes tell me his best performances have come deeper.

Don't forget the city game in the cup were he dropped deeper when I think Barry was sent off & he had toure & fernadinho chasing shadows little one twos Faints etc keeping possession and taking the sting out of the game

 

[AaronTheBlue]

just needs to get rid of the noodle hair and he'll be sound

 

[allezlesbleus]

You make some good points, and I do agree that Koeman is looking to buy in there which is not good for Ross. The first half of last season does counter what I am saying. I don't really have any clear cut answer to that question. I can only go on what my eyes tell me, which is that he looks uncomfortable playing as a number 10 and looks far happier deeper. Just his body language and how he holds himself.

He had a great run last season. I can only speculate why it would be the case. I think we were completely gung ho and were actually performing very well for the time which suited him. I also think we should say, in that great run, how many games did he actually control and dominate? He scored a lot of goals and made goals, but I wouldn't say he was integral to how we played.

If you compare to Arsenal this season, or in Martinez's first season against Liverpool and Arsenal in that run for him I think you saw Barkley at another level altogether. To coin a cliché he "ran the game". He obviously has abilities to shoot and pass so will always get assists and goals playing further forward but never looked comfortable to me. As the performances declined alongside his own performances and fitness so too have the goals and assists dried up. I think we now see what the goals and assists masked last season- that Barkley is not a very comfortable number 10 and it was a failed conversion.

I don't know if he can hack it as a number 8. I do think he has to sink or swim in that position though. The numbers indicate last season was his best but my own eyes tell me his best performances have come deeper.

I think you saw glimpses of the problem early last season when he would come deep to get involved in the play and would be tracked by two sometimes three opponents. He could not turn into them without losing possession so had to give the ball back frequently to who ever had passed to him in the first place. Equalled involvement but no impact on the game.......and frustration from the fans with the slow build up got combined with frustration with Ross that he was doing less up the pitch. That keeping possession might have pleased RM but it was not much fun to watch as one of our most creative players was being nullified and his head began to drop last year.