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Who’s the GOAT?

The GOAT is..

  • Total voters
    194
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Kurt. said:
It’s a myth that he dragged Napoli single handedly to success.... that team had some very good players in it.... quite a few internationals I believe... I think @Bruce Wayne has alluded to this previously too and his knowledge is far better than mine in that team
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I think their title-winning sides won a good few hundred international caps between them, and we're talking Italy, Brazil etc. not Cuco Martina style internationals.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
That's kind of the point though, over 700 or however many games, Messi very rarely has a bad night. He's consistently ridiculous. I think there was a stat not long ago saying that even now, when he's clearly not quite the player he was, he's either scored or assisted in a goal every game for like a year or something nuts, and this is in a Barca side that is well off the Xavi and Iniesta era.

Yet people choose to discount those 700 odd games and judge his career on a dozen games at a World Cup. I mentioned the 2018 CL final previously, and Real are a good example, as they have the best players Spain has to offer, plus Modric (world player of the year that year), Ronaldo, Marcelo, Varana, Bale, Kroos, Benzema et al. I think most observers would say their team is better than the Spanish team, just as Bayern's team today is better than the German team, Man City's better than the England team, and so on.

So not only does winning the Champions League require you to play a higher calibre of team throughout the tournament than you often get (over more games than it takes to win the WC as well), but the annual nature of the CL means players are tested far more frequently. It's the pinnacle of the sport now, not the World Cup.
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He's no worse than #4 all time depending on what your preference is. He's got absurd consistency and durablilty. Sure the best club teams would wax an international squad. Hell, Everton might be able to make a semi. clubs play together more and if you have the cash you can paper over weaknesses.

Its not that he hasn't performed outside his Barca bubble, he's been fine/good. I just want him at least once to leave no doubt that he's the best player when things around him aren't, you know, perfect.

He'll still be one of the 2-3 best players in the world in Qatar, so if healthy still has a chance. There are no world beaters coming to the tourney.
 
Rook said:
He's no worse than #4 all time depending on what your preference is. He's got absurd consistency and durablilty. Sure the best club teams would wax an international squad. Hell, Everton might be able to make a semi. clubs play together more and if you have the cash you can paper over weaknesses.

Its not that he hasn't performed outside his Barca bubble, he's been fine/good. I just want him at least once to leave no doubt that he's the best player when things around him aren't, you know, perfect.

He'll still be one of the 2-3 best players in the world in Qatar, so if healthy still has a chance. There are no world beaters coming to the tourney.
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That's a relative thing though, isn't it? He's played in Argentina sides that have reached four international finals, and few would argue they were vintage Argentina sides at the time. There's massive selective memory.

Portugal were 8th in the world rankings at the time of their Euro win, for instance. To get to the final, they drew with the 34th, 20th and 10th best sides in the world in the group stage (coming 3rd in the group of 4), before beating the joint 27th best team after extra time in the 16s, the joint 27th best team on penalties in the quarters, and the 26th best team in the semis. They then beat 17th ranked France in the final, with Ronaldo going off injured early on. So they drew 5 of their 7 games after 90 minutes, and didn't beat a single side ranked higher than them, yet Ronaldo is great coz he dragged them to the win. Luck is luck however you look at it.

As a point of contrast, in 2014 Argentina were ranked 5th in the world. En route to the final, they beat the 21st, 43rd and 44th best teams in the group stage to top their group, before beating 6th placed Switzerland in the 16s, 11th placed Belgium in the quarters, and 15th placed Netherlands in the semis, before losing to the 2nd ranked Germans in the final. So once again, they got to the final by playing one other team from the top 10 of the FIFA rankings. Is it really an elite tournament?
 
Rook said:
He's no worse than #4 all time depending on what your preference is. He's got absurd consistency and durablilty. Sure the best club teams would wax an international squad. Hell, Everton might be able to make a semi. clubs play together more and if you have the cash you can paper over weaknesses.

Its not that he hasn't performed outside his Barca bubble, he's been fine/good. I just want him at least once to leave no doubt that he's the best player when things around him aren't, you know, perfect.

He'll still be one of the 2-3 best players in the world in Qatar, so if healthy still has a chance. There are no world beaters coming to the tourney.
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Can't believe you're giving Messi the lofty chance of just being considered one of the top 4 players ever.
 
Nymzee said:
Can't believe you're giving Messi the lofty chance of just being considered one of the top 4 players ever.
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I said that even his distractors probably have him no worse than #4. He's the best player since Maradona so I guess #3 at worst. Some people like CR better, they are wrong but I guess you can present a decent case.

You take Messi over Maradona if you value consistency more. Maradona didn't take care of himself off the pitch, its his one knock. Messi's knock is his international performances.

IDK how good Puskas was, but people tell me he was the Hungarian Osman, so he probably deserves a shout too.
 
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Kurt. said:
It’s a myth that he dragged Napoli single handedly to success.... that team had some very good players in it.... quite a few internationals I believe... I think @Bruce Wayne has alluded to this previously too and his knowledge is far better than mine in that team
Click to expand...
They finished 8th the season he left/was banned. Also, never won a league until he joined and never won one since. I’d say that’s pretty much single handedly. They had some good players, of course, but they were a nothing team until he joined.

Edit; Careca had 60 something Brazil caps and the other 2 forwards something like 20 combined for Italy.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
That's a relative thing though, isn't it? He's played in Argentina sides that have reached four international finals, and few would argue they were vintage Argentina sides at the time. There's massive selective memory.

Portugal were 8th in the world rankings at the time of their Euro win, for instance. To get to the final, they drew with the 34th, 20th and 10th best sides in the world in the group stage (coming 3rd in the group of 4), before beating the joint 27th best team after extra time in the 16s, the joint 27th best team on penalties in the quarters, and the 26th best team in the semis. They then beat 17th ranked France in the final, with Ronaldo going off injured early on. So they drew 5 of their 7 games after 90 minutes, and didn't beat a single side ranked higher than them, yet Ronaldo is great coz he dragged them to the win. Luck is luck however you look at it.

As a point of contrast, in 2014 Argentina were ranked 5th in the world. En route to the final, they beat the 21st, 43rd and 44th best teams in the group stage to top their group, before beating 6th placed Switzerland in the 16s, 11th placed Belgium in the quarters, and 15th placed Netherlands in the semis, before losing to the 2nd ranked Germans in the final. So once again, they got to the final by playing one other team from the top 10 of the FIFA rankings. Is it really an elite tournament?
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I always like to see how the best perform when everything else around you is meh. Maybe growing up here where in the NFL the stars are spread out and are forced to adapt their games depending on their team's weaknesses gives me a different outlook. In footie the best players always play on the best teams and its the one part of footie I find the most annoying. The WC and to a lesser extent the Euros is the only chance we have a chance to see that.

So its not that the WC is this elite tourney. All the teams are very flawed. You play w/ the best in your country, not the world. However its this one time where we get to see the best outside their comfort zone.
 
Rook said:
I said that even his distractors probably have him no worse than #4. He's the best player since Maradona so I guess #3 at worst. Some people like CR better, they are wrong but I guess you can present a decent case.

You take Messi over Maradona if you value consistency more. Maradona didn't take care of himself off the pitch, its his one knock. Messi's knock is his international performances.

IDK how good Puskas was, but people tell me he was the Hungarian Osman, so he probably deserves a shout too.
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If he's anything that isn't a 1 or a 2 then that person doesn't watch football.
 
I voted for Diego but he was once asked who was the goat and said Alfredo Di Stefano. He may have picked him because he was a fellow Argentinian but he was a great player in an era before mass tv coverage. I never saw him play but the BBC had a series called 'Great Sporting Moments' a few years back and the showed the whole of the 1960 European Cup Final, Real Madrid 7 Eintracht Frankfurt 3. The game was a lot slower than today's game, and less tactical , but Madrid had a great team with a forward line that included Puskas, Gento, Luis Del Sol, as well as Di Stefano, wearing the number 9 shirt but often picking the ball up in deep positions before seeming to glide effortlessly past his opponents. He scored 3 and was the best player on the pitch, Puskas scored 4.

He somehow played internationals for Argentina, Colombia and Spain. He played 521 club games, scoring 376 goals, including 282 appearances for Madrid, with 216 goals.

Here's a video of him with some big names paying tribute.

 
Rook said:
He's no worse than #4 all time depending on what your preference is. He's got absurd consistency and durablilty. Sure the best club teams would wax an international squad. Hell, Everton might be able to make a semi. clubs play together more and if you have the cash you can paper over weaknesses.

Its not that he hasn't performed outside his Barca bubble, he's been fine/good. I just want him at least once to leave no doubt that he's the best player when things around him aren't, you know, perfect.

He'll still be one of the 2-3 best players in the world in Qatar, so if healthy still has a chance. There are no world beaters coming to the tourney.
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Things around him right now are not perfect
 

BigMick said:
I voted for Diego but he was once asked who was the goat and said Alfredo Di Stefano. He may have picked him because he was a fellow Argentinian but he was a great player in an era before mass tv coverage. I never saw him play but the BBC had a series called 'Great Sporting Moments' a few years back and the showed the whole of the 1960 European Cup Final, Real Madrid 7 Eintracht Frankfurt 3. The game was a lot slower than today's game, and less tactical , but Madrid had a great team with a forward line that included Puskas, Gento, Luis Del Sol, as well as Di Stefano, wearing the number 9 shirt but often picking the ball up in deep positions before seeming to glide effortlessly past his opponents. He scored 3 and was the best player on the pitch, Puskas scored 4.

He somehow played internationals for Argentina, Colombia and Spain. He played 521 club games, scoring 376 goals, including 282 appearances for Madrid, with 216 goals.

Here's a video of him with some big names paying tribute.

Click to expand...

Puskas was a better player in that team from what I've seen and read. Di Stefano gets a lot of credit because he was at Madrid first so it was his team so to speak.
 

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