2015 post UK election discussion

[peteblue]

Have they started yet? Throwing babies up in the air and bayonetting them?

Not yet, the SNP are still travelling back to Scotland........

 

[daylightrobber]

. You don't have a *right* to healthcare or food, or a certain standard of living... any more than your neighbour is obligated to provide it to you

Actually we do, although there is an obligation from the state to provide it. We're fully signed up to ......

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Due to the nature of the of our developed society any erosion of these rights is a crime against the people who they effect.

 

[bizzaro]

Actually we do, although there is an obligation from the state to provide it. We're fully signed up to ......

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Due to the nature of the of our developed society any erosion of these rights is a crime against the people who they effect.

You're quoting the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights - yet it clearly says that this is based on the maximum of its available resources.

It does not mean that the country should bankrupt itself in the process!

 

[davek]

Not yet, the SNP are still travelling back to Scotland........

pete, seriously, how do you vote Tory?

How can you live with that?

 

[Mrk]

But when the media has such a large influence and the country has been overwhelmingly right of centre since 1979, do you not think that the policies which chime with people are also the policies which could be considered pandering to the right wing press?

Absolutely and unequivocally, NO.

It's an absolute myth that the press have that much influence. We have a right-wing press because most people buy right-wing newspapers, so you come up with polices that chime with them, not with the people who write the headlines.

Honestly, the Labour party will never win another election until people stop believing in these fallacies.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

West Wirral played a blinder like, McVey will probably be on our screens constantly like that other bitch Hopkins spouting bilious views and earning a fortune from it (more than as an MP).

For me this election has really shown how self serving a great many in this country are, if it was Ukip that the support was being shown for then there'd be outrage that they are all racist and blaming the immigrants, but by giving their support for the Tories they are showing that they don't give a flying about those that are at the bottom of the ladder regarding earnings etc. or that they dont actually believe that the hardship exists. I heard many times on Radio Phone-ins & during debates etc "I got where I am due to hard work" well thats very probably true but the opportunity has to be there in the 1st place for you to get there, not everyone is presented with that opportunity and for a great many on low incomes they can work as hard as they can and put in as many hours as they can but they still wont get there or even have the opportunity to get there.

Back in the day (when her who's name should not be spoken was in) I didn't suffer the hardship that a great many others did with regard to employment, I left school and I got a good apprenticeship after doing a YTS at a place that did actually train you, during my apprenticeship when I 1st got to vote I was on good money in fact at 18 and in my 2nd year my take home pay was actually more than my arl fella's so I was bobbing along fine in life and I could afford to pretty much do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted, but I could still see what was going on around me, I could still see that not everyone was having it good, I could recognise that others that had left school with me hadn't been presented with the same opportunity as myself, I didn't cast my 1st vote on an I'm alright Jack basis I cast my vote based on what I could see around me as a whole. That election, my 1st was 1 that affected my future, just over a month before it she sold the group that I worked for to be rid of a debt owed to British Aerospace since the Falklands war and thus balance the books a little before the election, Brit. Aero pretty much asset stripped the group during the next 5 years and any opportunities that were coming my way vanished.
Yes there are some that don't want to work but nowhere near as many as is made out, certainly not as many as there are that would grab an opportunity with both hands to to be able to also say "I've got where I am due to hard work" unfortunately a great many will never actually get to say that and despite what seems these days to be the opinion of many it really isn't their fault nor is it their fault for the position/predicament that they find themselves in.


Britain has shown itself to be a Nation of self serving bigots this week imo, where the 'working poor' are looked down upon like they are swinging the lead.

 

[Seanjd]

You're quoting the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights - yet it clearly says that this is based on the maximum of its available resources.

It does not mean that the country should bankrupt itself in the process!

Hang on, the guy said we don't have a *right* to health or food.

The International Convent on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights states otherwise. That's it. Nothing to do with bankrupting countries.

 

[peteblue]

pete, seriously, how do you vote Tory?

How can you live with that?

I always vote for whoever I believe is best for the country......

 

[bizzaro]

Hang on, the guy said we don't have a *right* to health or food.

The International Convent on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights States otherwise. That's it. Nothing to do with bankrupting countries.

It establishes minimums that the state should provide targetting child mortality and basic health (like immunisation programmes) but also provision of water and food.

It does not go as far as you are claiming.

So there is no international legal obligation to provide a system like the NHS. In this respect this country is very lucky.

But also the NHS is abused by many from inside and outside this country - so called 'health tourism'.

But you're over stating the legal case massively.


It also clearly says to the maximum of its available resources!

 

[Minimeister]

Absolutely and unequivocally, NO.

It's an absolute myth that the press have that much influence. We have a right-wing press because most people buy right-wing newspapers, so you come up with polices that chime with them, not with the people who write the headlines.

Honestly, the Labour party will never win another election until people stop believing in these fallacies.

Baffled that anyone can think that way. If every day of your life someone buys a newspaper that picks and chooses stories that promote one party and criticises another then it's just ridiculous to think that won't influence people. It's not all about the front page on the day of the election it's every single day.

 

[daylightrobber]

You're quoting the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights - yet it clearly says that this is based on the maximum of its available resources.

It does not mean that the country should bankrupt itself in the process!

If you think that this country is anywhere near bankrupt you're mad. If you are suggesting that the country can't afford to feed it's citizens whilst we offer the richest in society tax breaks you're naive.

It seems to me that the right wing have the view that individuals are expected to re-jig their finances just to provide the bare essentials . As a nation, we have a duty to do the same by redistributing wealth and by making the tough decisions to provide health care ahead of faster trains & nuclear submarines etc.

 

[davek]

West Wirral played a blinder like, McVey will probably be on our screens constantly like that other bitch Hopkins spouting bilious views and earning a fortune from it (more than as an MP).

For me this election has really shown how self serving a great many in this country are, if it was Ukip that the support was being shown for then there'd be outrage that they are all racist and blaming the immigrants, but by giving their support for the Tories they are showing that they don't give a flying about those that are at the bottom of the ladder regarding earnings etc. or that they dont actually believe that the hardship exists. I heard many times on Radio Phone-ins & during debates etc "I got where I am due to hard work" well thats very probably true but the opportunity has to be there in the 1st place for you to get there, not everyone is presented with that opportunity and for a great many on low incomes they can work as hard as they can and put in as many hours as they can but they still wont get there or even have the opportunity to get there.

Back in the day (when her who's name should not be spoken was in) I didn't suffer the hardship that a great many others did with regard to employment, I left school and I got a good apprenticeship after doing a YTS at a place that did actually train you, during my apprenticeship when I 1st got to vote I was on good money in fact at 18 and in my 2nd year my take home pay was actually more than my arl fella's so I was bobbing along fine in life and I could afford to pretty much do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted, but I could still see what was going on around me, I could still see that not everyone was having it good, I could recognise that others that had left school with me hadn't been presented with the same opportunity as myself, I didn't cast my 1st vote on an I'm alright Jack basis I cast my vote based on what I could see around me as a whole. That election, my 1st was 1 that affected my future, just over a month before it she sold the group that I worked for to be rid of a debt owed to British Aerospace since the Falklands war and thus balance the books a little before the election, Brit. Aero pretty much asset stripped the group during the next 5 years and any opportunities that were coming my way vanished.
Yes there are some that don't want to work but nowhere near as many as is made out, certainly not as many as there are that would grab an opportunity with both hands to to be able to also say "I've got where I am due to hard work" unfortunately a great many will never actually get to say that and despite what seems these days to be the opinion of many it really isn't their fault nor is it their fault for the position/predicament that they find themselves in.


Britain has shown itself to be a Nation of self serving bigots this week imo, where the 'working poor' are looked down upon like they are swinging the lead.

Great post Reidy.

 

[bizzaro]

If you think that this country is anywhere near bankrupt you're mad. If you are suggesting that the country can't afford to feed it's citizens whilst we offer the richest in society tax breaks you're naive.

It seems to me that the right wing have the view that individuals are expected to re-jig their finances just to provide the bare essentials . As a nation, we have a duty to do the same by redistributing wealth and by making the tough decisions to provide health care ahead of faster trains & nuclear submarines etc.

This country was on the verge of needing an IMF loan in 2010. i.e. bankruptcy.

If you think otherwise you're delusional!

The country needs to be protected. i.e. needs an army, airforce and navy.

The country can only generate more wealth to pay for things like the NHS and everything else if faster trains increase businesses ability to produce wealth! To pay for it all.

 

[Seanjd]

But also the NHS is abused by many from inside and outside this country - so called 'health tourism'.

If you could back up your 'health tourism' claim with any kind if decent evidence,go ahead. You won't find it though, because the term has been invented to influence people like yourself.

 

[bring the ghost on]

We have a right-wing press because most people buy right-wing newspapers, so you come up with polices that chime with them, not with the people who write the headlines.

This was my point to begin with... The consensus in this country is right of centre, that's how popular opinion has developed since 1979. The right-wing press may not be the cause of this shift in popular opinion, but it is certainly there to preserve the status quo, and for what it is worth, it does a good job of preserving it.

Hence, I think if the Labour party are to create policies which chime with popular opinion, this will inevitably include appealing to the murdoch press to some extent. This is why I originally stated that the question for Labour is how much they renege on their own principles in order to get back in power. Their traditional philosophy does not have enough public appeal in the modern political landscape. This is why Blair scrapped Clause IV and this is also a contributing factor as to why it would never have been possible for Miliband to govern with a majority.