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Al Gore, what a loser.

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What happens to the bloke found on the streets, no money, no insurance and about to die if not given urgent medical treatment?

leave him on the streets to die?

Don't think of paying for the NHS as paying for the lifestyles of the smokers and drinkers, think of it as paying for the sick and injured, mick for example not just now but in the past, I'm a whole life candidate if I hadn't moved to Japan I would still be getting free flu vacinations, drugs, 2 doctors and 1 professor appoinments a few times a year etc.

At the end of the day, if you live a nice lifestyle and make your own way in life you can sit back at 75 and look forward to 10,15, 20 years more healthy life? never having to worry about money, whereas the people who smoke heavily, drink heavily and couldn't give a rats ass about their work or career will be lucky to hit 60.
 
I almost admire your belief in the innate goodness of people, Bruce. I'm afraid I'm more cynical and, to be honest, I believe that people are inherently selfish and capable of believing and doing the most appalling things if left to their own devices.

I think your world would be more Darwinian than it already is. You believe that the richer sections of society would be happier to spend their money on retarded adults or the chronically disabled. I believe that they would rather pay for their next plastic surgery or the next helping of a $7.95 Triple Cheese Burger/Shrimp Combo.

Mmmm, where do I go to get that deal?

*Disclaimer* Toungue-in-cheek all the way!!!
 
What happens to the bloke found on the streets, no money, no insurance and about to die if not given urgent medical treatment?

leave him on the streets to die?

Don't think of paying for the NHS as paying for the lifestyles of the smokers and drinkers, think of it as paying for the sick and injured, mick for example not just now but in the past, I'm a whole life candidate if I hadn't moved to Japan I would still be getting free flu vacinations, drugs, 2 doctors and 1 professor appoinments a few times a year etc.

This is often the retort to my largely philisophical argument, as though I'm somehow delivering my personal manifesto for government :D

I don't know is the answer to your question. I just hope you will understand that simply because I don't know the answer doesn't mean one doesn't exist, for, difficult though it may be to believe, I don't know about a lot of things and the world still turns quite nicely :)

It's perhaps worth remembering that when the NHS was created in 1946 Churchill was vehemently opposed to it, so I like to think I'm not completely alone in believing a fairer system than what Nigel Lawson called the national religion exists.

It's also worth noting that the model for the NHS was in fact Tredegar Medical Aid Society, an organisation formed for Welsh miners and steel workers, whereby for a portion of their weekly wage they could receive free healthcare.
 
Sure, I suspect many would do this but there seems to be a growing trend towards philanthropy amongst the very rich, and billions are donated annually by the not so rich. Maybe it is wishful thinking, I don't suppose I'll ever live in a society where the essential goodness of man is put to such a test.

blood and organ donors, chronic lack in both cases.
 
Neither are an issue for me as I would happily give up both. The organ donor issue is slightly more complex than it seems however as there are many people out there with the perception that those carrying donor cards will receive sub-standard medical care when on their death bed.

The other thing worth noting is that in the UK the doctor still has to seek permission from your family to take organs, regardless of whether you have a card or not. I suspect under such intense grief it would be difficult to think of their loved one being sliced and diced.

The prospect of it being mandated by a government frankly fills me with horror, regardless of any shortage.

With regards to blood there are also numerous reasons that donations are low, one of which is that they are notoriously picky. If you have set foot inside Africa, then you may as well leave. If you have had pituitary gland problems and you have to take medicine for that, then you get the boot as well. Underweight, then you could be anemic and, well, yeah, you suffer the same fate. Any sexual contact raises a flag. Heck in the States you can't even give blood if you consumed any dairy products from this country in case of mad cow disease. If you actually go to a blood drive and sit around you'll be amazed at the number that turn up and are then turned away.
 

I'll reiterate that my two main problems with socialized medicine are:

1) The wait times to have medical procedures done are much longer than acceptable. I'm confident that if I had the time, I could come up with the horror stories of people who were told that their situation had to become worse before it could become treated. One off you say? Maybe so but that's not an issue now in the United States. You cannot be refused treatment in any hospital in the USA. If it's life threatening, it's treated right then and there.

2) There is a cost associated with socialized medicine as I think we can all agree that it isn't free. John Q. Taxpayer is gonna have to foot the bill. So, Bruce brings up a fair point. Why should I, as John Q. Taxpayer pay for someone who falls under the category of "not taking good care of themselves."
 
I'll reiterate that my two main problems with socialized medicine are:

1) The wait times to have medical procedures done are much longer than acceptable. I'm confident that if I had the time, I could come up with the horror stories of people who were told that their situation had to become worse before it could become treated. One off you say? Maybe so but that's not an issue now in the United States. You cannot be refused treatment in any hospital in the USA. If it's life threatening, it's treated right then and there.

2) There is a cost associated with socialized medicine as I think we can all agree that it isn't free. John Q. Taxpayer is gonna have to foot the bill. So, Bruce brings up a fair point. Why should I, as John Q. Taxpayer pay for someone who falls under the category of "not taking good care of themselves."

the UK answer to question 2) is by taxing people who don't take care of themselves on their spending. e.g Cigarettes and Alcohol.

a pack of cigarettes in the UK is about $11.00! A pint of beer in London is about $7.00. When I was in the third world I saw a pack of american made cigarettes going for $0.30. And beer is just water, yeast and overheads. the tax and mark up represents more than 90%.

So a man who drinks and smokes alot has hardly any money in england, as he pays the government for his lifestyle.

and he has bloody well paid for any medical treatment he gets down the line.
 
Still doesn't really work though does it, in the fairness stakes I mean.

Lets say person A earns $60,000 a year, person B earns $30,000 a year. Neither are mega rich yet person B is getting pretty much the same health care for half the price. How is that fair?
 
person A has more free income to dedicate to a healthy diet and exercise.

its common knowledge that lower income families tend to eat and live in unhealthy lifestyles - fast food, no exercise, partial to smoking, consume excesses of alcohol.

that isnt rule, but it is a percentage.

tax bracketing is also a factor, over £36k per annum = 40%, im not sure what the % is under 36k. so in fact the well off pay more tax but that counts towards what? how to apportion percentages of tax individually is in my opinion somewhat difficult.
 

Still doesn't really work though does it, in the fairness stakes I mean.

Lets say person A earns $60,000 a year, person B earns $30,000 a year. Neither are mega rich yet person B is getting pretty much the same health care for half the price. How is that fair?

what kind of locust mentality is that?

Person A can feel good that he is helping Person B. Person (Uber Rich) can feel good is he helping everyone, and Persons D - Z can be greatful for the system.

This is the strong helping the weak. The healthy helping the sick. The rich have a greater responsibility to the poor, because they can afford to help others.

this is the bedrock of society, living together, helping each other out according to our strengths and recieving help from others according to our weaknesses.

Not, well I pay more, so surely I should get a better service, or at least a wine menu and fancy meal when I go in to have my ingrowing toenails removed.

Getting that little edge, or special advantage or luxury is so important for people now that they are willing to see the complete dissolution of any form of benevolent society that doesn't directly benefit those who least need it (i.e themselves).

See this mentality all the time commuting. The train to stanstead is about 50 minutes from London and there's a first class section.

Its seats are about the same, only they get a little paper thing over the headrest. there's a few more tables and obviously its alot less crowded than 2nd. People pay more than double for this luxury. you smuggle your own drinks and sarnies on the train and the people looking through from 1st want to complain. Its not enough to live in luxury, you want to see other people dieing the mud to really make you feel like a king.

How fragile are some people's ego's and what kind of inferiority complex must you have to live like this?
 
what kind of locust mentality is that?

Person A can feel good that he is helping Person B. Person (Uber Rich) can feel good is he helping everyone, and Persons D - Z can be greatful for the system.

This is the strong helping the weak. The healthy helping the sick. The rich have a greater responsibility to the poor, because they can afford to help others.

this is the bedrock of society, living together, helping each other out according to our strengths and recieving help from others according to our weaknesses.

Not, well I pay more, so surely I should get a better service, or at least a wine menu and fancy meal when I go in to have my ingrowing toenails removed.

Getting that little edge, or special advantage or luxury is so important for people now that they are willing to see the complete dissolution of any form of benevolent society that doesn't directly benefit those who least need it (i.e themselves).

See this mentality all the time commuting. The train to stanstead is about 50 minutes from London and there's a first class section.

Its seats are about the same, only they get a little paper thing over the headrest. there's a few more tables and obviously its alot less crowded than 2nd. People pay more than double for this luxury. you smuggle your own drinks and sarnies on the train and the people looking through from 1st want to complain. Its not enough to live in luxury, you want to see other people dieing the mud to really make you feel like a king.

How fragile are some people's ego's and what kind of inferiority complex must you have to live like this?

It doesn't really work like that though does it. We've had well over 50 years of free, compulsory education for each and every child in the country, and still people abuse it and don't make the most of this wonderful opportunity.

You say people are grateful for the system that supports them, I'd suggest that many think that it's their right to be supported. This nanny statism is a major problem in my opinion because people seldom do things if others are there to do it for them. So where families were once expected to provide for their own, and indeed neighbourhoods for their own, now the state is the shoulder to cry on.

Now don't get me wrong, I believe in philanthropy and helping others, but we have a society now where the safety net is so big it's smothering. As I've said before, charity should be a voluntary thing, not obligatory. Making mistakes is all a part of life and there should be punishments for making them, it's all a part of learning. At the moment the cushion is so big people can almost make mistakes with impunity.

I'm adopted and you wouldn't believe the hoops my parents had to jump through to prove themselves worthy. Yet time after time people can knock out children with no thought of how to raise the child and the state steps in to provide housing, money, goodness knows what else. Now if people want to help single parents, or the jobless (remember the 13 years of free education every kid has?) then fair enough, you should be able to spend your money the way you want, but no one should be obligated to help another. That's a basic freedom, the right to live your life how you like so long as you don't hurt anyone else.

It's about taking responsibility for your own actions and your own life. Go to places in the third world and they'd give their right arm for 13 years of free education, yet so many of our kids absolutely waste it. Why should anyone be obliged to help someone who has wasted such an opportunity in life? We've had a welfare state now for over 50 years and yet we still have millions of poor and uneducated people. Surely if it was working at all the numbers would be getting less and less, but they grow ever greater each year. We're not helping the poor, we're making them dependant.
 
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for a second there it sounded as though the educational system is consistent throughout and that every pupil comes off a conveyor belt the exact same as the last and that one size therefor fits all.

heaven forbid different pupils to have different needs.
 

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