Barca - Real Madrid

Brownie · November 30, 2010

A victory for teamwork more than anything. Carvs didn't even know Messi was behind him for the elbow tho, was pretty clear.

RFUS · November 30, 2010

Brownie said:
A victory for teamwork more than anything. Carvs didn't even know Messi was behind him for the elbow tho, was pretty clear.

It looked like that from the back, then the front angle showed him glance, then accelerate his arm into Messi's face.

GhostOfDixie · November 30, 2010

stinger said:
Because they are horrible on transfer market (with a few exceptions) paying big money for players which are later sold for friction of that, they have to pay insane wages to keep their players plus even more performance based bonuses. And on the top of that, don't forget that Barca is not only about football - they have other sports on a very high level and that sections don't generate big money. Basketball section (which is a top team in Europe as well) has probably a budget of around 20 milion euros, not sure if they are able to generate even half of that on their own.

For example in recent years they spent 45 milion euros on trio of Hleb, Caceres and Keirrison, plus another 45 was wasted on Ibra. Huge waste of money and before that it was even worse. They also rarely get good money when selling players.

Edit: That;s how you put yourself in such a huge debt - http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tRiq-iYuOE3SujdqEWrOOLg&gid=0

Well I doubt they are concerned that much. It's different in Spain than in England.

stinger · November 30, 2010

Brownie said:
A victory for teamwork more than anything. Carvs didn't even know Messi was behind him for the elbow tho, was pretty clear.

You are insulting one of the best players in "cynical thugs category" on the planet suggesting that he didn't know, of course he knew. Just like he didn't notice Messli getting up inside the penalty box, after Pepe stopped him and he "accidentally" went through him (literally). I think Messi was correctly booked (Carvalho probably should be as well), but come on

.

stinger · November 30, 2010

GhostOfDixie said:
Well I doubt they are concerned that much. It's different in Spain than in England.

I;m not saying they are concerned, because they will never go down and they would always be bailed out, when really needed. Just tried to explain and show how you can get your club in such a big debt.

Of course if situation would get really bad, they can always get a big money sponsor, which for them would mean around 20-25m euros per season. Plus they would have a few extra play in their sleeves to improve situation. Since they are not doing that, I guess they consider their debt to be managable.

Brownie · November 30, 2010

RadioFriendlyUnitShifter said:
It looked like that from the back, then the front angle showed him glance, then accelerate his arm into Messi's face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyXaoHuTbis Where's the look? He's looking at the ref the whole time. Can't really see him 'accelerating' his arm either. It's not even an elbow to be honest, his shoulder has bashed into his face.

stinger said:
You are insulting one of the best players in "cynical thugs category" on the planet suggesting that he didn't know, of course he knew. Just like he didn't notice Messli getting up inside the penalty box, after Pepe stopped him and he "accidentally" went through him (literally). I think Messi was correctly booked (Carvalho probably should be as well), but come on .

On the other one I agree, and yes Carvalho does typically play very cynically and go in hard quite often, kicks people around. However, he's not usually actually violent. I can't remember him being involved in an elbowing incident before, stamping, punching, anything like that, can you?

stinger · November 30, 2010

I don't put much effort to follow things like that, I don't consider him particularly violent as well, but I'm pretty sure I could find some elbows or stamps.

There was no need for that for example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLx9gXhNi30

RFUS · November 30, 2010

Brownie said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyXaoHuTbis Where's the look? He's looking at the ref the whole time. Can't really see him 'accelerating' his arm either. It's not even an elbow to be honest, his shoulder has bashed into his face.

On the other one I agree, and yes Carvalho does typically play very cynically and go in hard quite often, kicks people around. However, he's not usually actually violent. I can't remember him being involved in an elbowing incident before, stamping, punching, anything like that, can you?

Maybe I dreamt the look -- overactive imagination. :lol:

Nevertheless, if that's unintentional then I'm Batman.

Brownie · November 30, 2010

stinger said:
I don't put much effort to follow things like that, I don't consider him particularly violent as well, but I'm pretty sure I could find some elbows or stamps.

There was no need for that for example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLx9gXhNi30

That's brilliant tho, he's a genius at it. Even there it wouldn't actually have hurt Juanlu that much, he's just being a [Poor language removed] and annoying his opponents.

I just like him as a player and don't want to see him slaughtered for an elbow that wasn't even an elbow.

stinger · November 30, 2010

Brownie said:
That's brilliant tho, he's a genius at it. Even there it wouldn't actually have hurt Juanlu that much, he's just being a [Poor language removed] and annoying his opponents.

I just like him as a player and don't want to see him slaughtered for an elbow that wasn't even an elbow.

I agree with your 2nd paragraph, it wasn't an elbow (even if he knew what he was doing). He should be sent off for his handball though.
But I don't know about the 1st one - it looks quite risky for my taste, you can't control things like on which part of opposite's player face your foot will land...

RFUS · November 30, 2010

Brownie said:
That's brilliant tho, he's a genius at it. Even there it wouldn't actually have hurt Juanlu that much, he's just being a [Poor language removed] and annoying his opponents.

I just like him as a player and don't want to see him slaughtered for an elbow that wasn't even an elbow.

He's a class defender, but that doesn't mean he's above the rules. Whether or not it was an elbow (in my opinion, and seemingly most peoples', it was), he should have later been sent off for the handball.

Brownie · November 30, 2010

stinger said:
I agree with your 2nd paragraph, it wasn't an elbow (even if he knew what he was doing). He should be sent off for his handball though.
But I don't know about the 1st one - it looks quite risky for my taste, you can't control things like on which part of opposite's player face your foot will land...

Agreed, fairly risky, but he still didn't jump very high, so it was very unlikely to be that bad. But yeh, could easily have scraped his eye or something, which would have been nasty. Yet, he could still say it was accidental. He walks a fine line but is usually on the morally ok side of it.

RadioFriendlyUnitShifter said:
He's a class defender, but that doesn't mean he's above the rules. Whether or not it was an elbow (in my opinion, and seemingly most peoples', it was), he should have later been sent off for the handball.

Maybe, it's debatable that one, was quite far out. A nice handball tho, you have to say.

I think we can all agree that everyone loves Carvs. A shame to see him run absolutely ragged tonight. I think it's clear now that if you don't have an extremely good defence, you stand no chance against Barca, so that rules out anyone else from Spain beating them.

stinger · November 30, 2010

If we would took "extremely good defence" as it sounds, it rules out anyone else from England and Italy as well. It has to be a combination of factors - well organized defence, midfield which is able to stand up keep a ball better, ability to counter attack, etc...
And there's a luck factor of course, like Inter having majority of decision going for them last year in CL, or Iniesta being not available (at least in return game, not sure about the 1st one), which made a huge difference in unlocking bus Mourinho parked at Camp Nou.

And we will never agree on Carvalho - as great as he is (as a defender, ball player or thug) I always couldn't stand him and it will probably never change.

chicoazul · November 30, 2010

I'd like to like Barca but they disappeared up their own arse a couple of years ago, and are populated by players of that detestable Spanish team.

Brownie · November 30, 2010

stinger said:
If we would took "extremely good defence" as it sounds, it rules out anyone else from England and Italy as well. It has to be a combination of factors - well organized defence, midfield which is able to stand up keep a ball better, ability to counter attack, etc...
And there's a luck factor of course, like Inter having majority of decision going for them last year in CL, or Iniesta being not available (at least in return game, not sure about the 1st one), which made a huge difference in unlocking bus Mourinho parked at Camp Nou.

Note that I'm talking about even 'having a chance' against Barca. There's no doubt they are the best team in the world at the moment by quite a big margin. If you look at previous results against English teams tho, they are usually very close, at least in the scoreline. I still think Chelsea or United would have more of a chance against them than their Spanish counterparts, even this year when both of those teams are weaker.

I agree Inter were quite fortunate to get a result against them last year, but again I would still give them more of a chance than a Spanish team. I'm just emphasising the importance of the cultural differences in how football is played. The only way to beat Barca I think is to defend exceptionally well as a team and beat them with directness, physicality and speed. Once you get past the immediate closing down when they lose the ball, they are quite poor defensively. The difficult thing is to stop them having 65%+ possession. If you can do that, you can score goals against them.