Dave Sibson - Evertonian now Banned for 3 years

[keverton]

I will be honest with you on this, i really don't know who is right or wrong on this case as i will never know all the facts. However i will admit 3 years ago i was watching everton v blackburn (away game, away end) and dickov was being his usual ********** self. Then he started giving weir s**t so i shouted out [Poor language removed] off dickov you scottish ****. Now i have never done anything like this before or since. Was it wrong of me to say what i did absoulutely. Is my crime worse than the man that has been charged? I dont know. Am i racist? Absoulutely not. Would the pc brigade say i am? I don't know. All i am saying if i had received the same penalty what the bloke had received i would consider myself very very unlucky and think i have been let down.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Can i just ask then, what to you call someone from say England......English........no way. Ok lets try Scotland........ooooh Scottish.....oh no i said it didnt i. Ok last one see if i got this right, i am from Wales........ok ok im gonna say it.....Im Welsh...oh no he didint.......
There is no way on Earth that calling someone by their nationality is racism, no matter how its painted.

Louis Saha's Black aswell, would it be okay for someone to call him a Black, lazy [Poor language removed]? He is Black afterall. They would only be stating the truth, just like good old Dave did when he mentioned Saha's nationality.

Once again, what's the difference? Why is it acceptable to criticise someones nationality/country of birth but unacceptable to say something about there skin colour? That thinking, for me, is lacking in common sense. It's easier to get away with, and that's probably why he said it, but it could still be considered abusive and offensive. You can't protect one section of our fan base but leave the others out to dry.

 

[efcforever]

I'm gutted for the fan. I just hope he feels like he wants to come back to Goodison after he has served this RIDICULOUS punishment.

If you want to be completely PC then okay a punishment is needed. But this PC brigade don't seem to use common sense and just look for witch hunts to embark upon. I agree with the poster who said FACT Saha is French and Fact he is lazy at times. The fan in question has probably spent thousands of pounds following Everton and then has to put up with players not wearing the shirt with pride. Who can blame him if his frustration got the better of him

I do not condone racism but then I don't think this is rascist.

We've all heard the chant 'same old scoucers...always cheating', do we get offended by that? Should every single fan who ever chanted that be banned from football for 3 years? Surely if you follow the logic that has been applied in this case, then the chant here implies that all scoucers are cheats and that must be rascist!

Ridiculous just ridiculous!

 

[BlackToffee]

I really can't understand the anger on here. He was charged with a public order offence including alleged racially aggravated harassment. This implies that he was giving it some real verbal, not just a one off comment as people on this thread want to imply.

For those not bothered to read my previous post on this thread, I've already stated that I believe that 3 years ban from ALL football grounds is a bit harsh, but you don't get that sort of ban by being convicted of some casual throw away remark.

 

[Ireallyhatether.s]

Scouser

 

[ART]

If at a sporting event or a protest march or in public any where in the world never forget two things self respect and respect for others.This is a classic case of the two being ignored.I have no sympathy what so ever.Live with it ,deal with it.

 

[Bigloco]

I can't believe people are actually defending what the court has done here....do you really want to give away that much freedom? It opens doors that I don't think you want to have opened.

He's fined and banned for "lazy french [Poor language removed]"...are you going to accept a fine and more for letting slip a "fat yank"... or a "that rich egotistical yank" when talking about liverpools owner? How about saying "wow, lower Gwladys is sure filled with some drunken scousers today"

I can see each of those things being just as offensive as what they guy said...and I've read NOTHING that says he said anything more than that.

But what do I know, i'm just a stupid, fat yank that like everyone else in America, can't keeps his nose out of other people's business...

G'dammit, i just cost myself 5 years and 1000 quid

 

[BlackToffee]

I can't believe people are actually defending what the court has done here....do you really want to give away that much freedom? It opens doors that I don't think you want to have opened.

He's fined and banned for "lazy french [Poor language removed]"...are you going to accept a fine and more for letting slip a "fat yank"... or a "that rich egotistical yank" when talking about liverpools owner? How about saying "wow, lower Gwladys is sure filled with some drunken scousers today"

I can see each of those things being just as offensive as what they guy said...and I've read NOTHING that says he said anything more than that.

But what do I know, i'm just a stupid, fat yank that like everyone else in America, can't keeps his nose out of other people's business...

G'dammit, i just cost myself 5 years and 1000 quid

No you didn't cost yourself five years, you've just showed that you haven't bothered to read the thread or understand what he's been charged with. At the risk of sounding like a broken record you get that type of charge and the type of sentence if its an unrelenting torrent of abuse. Is that a freedom that you really want? Is this really what to want to get people up in arms about?

In America you're probably correct, which is why you have politicians having maps with gun crossheads on them, and mad people shooting those same politicians. You can keep those freedoms, I'd rather a good balance between freedom to say what you want with the responsibility that if you go too far you face the consequences.

Dave went too far. He's faced the consequences. Simples.

 

[inim]

Well, personally i have no problem with referring to someone by their nationality or being referred to by mine, providing its in the right context, it can be affectionate. I'm pretty thick skinned though, and if it made someone uncomfortable that would be the end of the matter. It all comes down to what people are prepared to tolerate, and there are differing levels of that from person to person.

iam pretty thick skinned but if some yank called beckham a lazy english [Poor language removed].you would take offence hate to think what you would do if you wasnt thick skinned also can blacktoffee confirm if its ok to use the word yank

 

[Bigloco]

I've read every post and the article in the Echo which I quote:

Judge Fletcher said spectators who were sat near Sibson alleged in witness statements that “numerous remarks had been heard through the course of the match”.
But he said prosecutors accepted Sibson pleading guilty to two counts of abusing the French player by calling him a “f****** useless lazy French b******”.
He said Sibson’s heckle was offensive and racially aggravated by its reference to Saha’s national origin.

Nowhere does it say that the "numerous remarks...through the course of the match" were racist...they don't even imply that they were off-color or upsetting to anyone. For all we can tell, it may have been alot of "Come ON, Saha, you're awful!"

He's convicted based on the one line quoted.

It wouldn't bother me if the powers at Goodison Park banned him from the stadium for 3 years... life for that matter, if he were loud and obnoxious. That's their perogative.

But for the government to intervene and hand out fines and bans from attending any match is, too me, a Government bordering on tyranny.

I guess growing up in a country where the first rule is "freedom of speech" gives me a different perspective and I'll agree to just disagree.

 

[BlackToffee]

iam pretty thick skinned but if some yank called beckham a lazy english [Poor language removed].you would take offence hate to think what you would do if you wasnt thick skinned also can blacktoffee confirm if its ok to use the word yank

I am more than happy to confirm that you can use the term Yank. So long as this is not used pejoratively and preferably used with a capital. The same goes for Black, English, Scottish, Irish etc. :blink:

Great care must to taken to ensure that the term Black and not its antecedents such as coloured, or negro is used. Similar care must be taken in the use of the word Norwegian as some formulites might consider this another way of calling them a red. :blink::blink:

The term "wool" is up for debate as it has not been determined if such a term can be referred as a racial slur or just a cheap shot. The political correction unit will of course investigate :blink::blink: but in the meantime welcomes further submission on this sensitive subject.

I hope that this assists people in the future.

 

[BlackToffee]

I've read every post and the article in the Echo which I quote:

Judge Fletcher said spectators who were sat near Sibson alleged in witness statements that “numerous remarks had been heard through the course of the match”.
But he said prosecutors accepted Sibson pleading guilty to two counts of abusing the French player by calling him a “f****** useless lazy French b******”.
He said Sibson’s heckle was offensive and racially aggravated by its reference to Saha’s national origin.

Nowhere does it say that the "numerous remarks...through the course of the match" were racist...they don't even imply that they were off-color or upsetting to anyone. For all we can tell, it may have been alot of "Come ON, Saha, you're awful!"

He's convicted based on the one line quoted.

It wouldn't bother me if the powers at Goodison Park banned him from the stadium for 3 years... life for that matter, if he were loud and obnoxious. That's their perogative.

But for the government to intervene and hand out fines and bans from attending any match is, too me, a Government bordering on tyranny.

I guess growing up in a country where the first rule is "freedom of speech" gives me a different perspective and I'll agree to just disagree.

Not read the report from the echo, but you make my point for me. The point which people seemed to want to make it that it was a one off remark. The point I was making is that it was a sustained remark, enough to prompt people to complain.

Public order offences are not the province of football clubs, but a matter of legal jurisdiction based on laws passed by the government. Even in America, freedom of speech has its limits. Not as much as the UK, but I'm sure that America does not have free and unfettered freedom of speech where you have the right to abuse people without consequences.

 

[Tubey]

Not read the report from the echo, but you make my point for me. The point which people seemed to want to make it that it was a one off remark. The point I was making is that it was a sustained remark, enough to prompt people to complain.

Public order offences are not the province of football clubs, but a matter of legal jurisdiction based on laws passed by the government. Even in America, freedom of speech has its limits. Not as much as the UK, but I'm sure that America does not have free and unfettered freedom of speech where you have the right to abuse people without consequences.

No offence mate, but I can call a Welshman a Welshman as many times as I want.

Unless he's said something actually racist, this isn't right. I'm well versed on the principles of verbal assault, which this could be classed as, but....

But he said prosecutors accepted Sibson pleading guilty to two counts of abusing the French player by calling him a “f****** useless lazy French b******”.
He said Sibson’s heckle was offensive and racially aggravated by its reference to Saha’s national origin.

Going by that, he's simply being punished for using his nationality as an adjective. There's no doubt in my mind that there was absolutely zero intent of racism in that sentence.

IF it was a continual verbal tirade, then as I say it's verbal assault which is completely seperate from the racism issue. But it quite clearly says right there that he was done for that one remark.

 

[Clint Planet]

As for PC, well it's a buzz word imo. I consider reporting and punishing racism to be morally correct. I believe we should all be part of the MC brigade

Is right.

 

[Clint Planet]

Christ guys will you read what people are saying. Stating someone is french on its own as a fact is fine. But inserting their nationality into an abusive sentence isnt. Its about context no different to raising someones sex, age, colour or whatever when shouting abuse at them. Its unneeded and unfortunatly associated with larger more serious problems.

Yep. It's pretty simple, really.