David Moyes - Taking a knife to a gunfight at West Ham, Part 2

[DonJulio]

Doesn't really make any difference to me mate, I've always treated him as a winger

That’s fine but he really isn’t a winger he’s a striker. It suits his skill set so much more and in fairness, his goal record as a striker backs that up.

Nothing wrong with being defensive over your team either, I'm always defensive over my own team, and considering you've had 2-3 bad years, being clear of danger and in a European place must be like a dream come true.

I don’t think I’m being overly defensive, in fact, I’ve actually stated quite a few times now that I think we will slide down the table as our lack of squad depth catches up with us.

you haven't won a trophy since 1980

And we won’t until GSB are gone.

amazing away days at Chelsea, Tottenham will disappear

Tottenham away this year was by far and away the game of the season for me.

Just depends what you want from your team.

Players who actually give a toss and arent just happy strolling around the park and collecting their wage packet. Players playing with a smile on their face. Winning the odd game. Not being in a relegation scrap. Not starting Mark Noble every single match without fail.

We’re not where Everton are, we’re miles behind in terms of expectations. I’d imagine most of the above is just expected at Everton but they are things we have rarely seen down at our rented athletics track.

 

[DonJulio]

It's all relative, it's the trying not to lose, which sometimes has its place in the league I dare say, but cups are knockout sudden death.
You dont get anything for a draw, you just get a chance to lose it on pennos.
You'll learn, see the recurring, bottle the big ones, pattern after a few more seasons.
Edit; Moyes doesnt do sudden death, knock out, must win. He does do get a goal against the run of play...or even deserved, but he'll sit back and try to hang on...about 1 time in 8ish he'll do it.

I take your points, at this stage, we are happy with our lot as it stands.

 

[degsy]

I take your points, at this stage, we are happy with our lot as it stands.

We were too, early doors, but you'll see it all emerge over time as he gets his feet under the table, makes himself sort of indispensable to Boards/Owners who are happy just staying in the Prem.
Where 10th or higher is seen as hitting your KPIs and the odd cup run is a bonus.
He'll maybe even find some bargins for the board to sell on and not whinge too much if he sees none of the cash in the next window.

 

[DonJulio]

We were too, early doors, but you'll see it all emerge over time as he gets his feet under the table, makes himself sort of indispensable to Boards/Owners who are happy just staying in the Prem.
Where 10th or higher is seen as hitting your KPIs and the odd cup run is a bonus.
He'll maybe even find some bargins for the board to sell on and not whinge too much if he sees none of the cash in the next window.

Until GSB sell up he sounds like the perfect manager for us to be honest.

 

[number4.]

It's all relative, it's the trying not to lose, which sometimes has its place in the league I dare say, but cups are knockout sudden death.
You dont get anything for a draw, you just get a chance to lose it on pennos.
You'll learn, see the recurring, bottle the big ones, pattern after a few more seasons.
Edit; Moyes doesnt do sudden death, knock out, must win. He does do get a goal against the run of play...or even deserved, but he'll sit back and try to hang on...about 1 time in 8ish he'll do it.

I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I think it is really worth emphasising. At the end of the Fulham V West ham game, before the red card incident, Fabianski was booked for time wasting. Time wasting against fulham, when you are talking about Europe is simply the wrong mentality.

Moyes is a good manager, but he will never bring a team beyond the glass ceiling, he achieved here a good few times and now at WH.

 

[barneygumble]

That’s fine but he really isn’t a winger he’s a striker. It suits his skill set so much more and in fairness, his goal record as a striker backs that up.

Each to their own, at least we can agree, he's a cracking player.

But he'll be accomodated, if you sign a main striker in he summer, which would probably be on the wing.

I don’t think I’m being overly defensive, in fact, I’ve actually stated quite a few times now that I think we will slide down the table as our lack of squad depth catches up with us.

I'm more making a comment on defensive of Moyes over last night. You keep referring to the league, when I was making the point that you must be frustrated with your performance yesterday. United, resting players, and you rolling over in Moyes style.

And we won’t until GSB are gone.

Or Moyes. Moyes will get the fans on board quickly, by achieving decent returns with a diabolical board.

We're not that dissimilar, but the reality is, you've spent money... just poorly. We got a loan of planet rock, to afford a striker, you spent £80m+ on Anderson and Haller and now both aren't with you.

Tottenham away this year was by far and away the game of the season for me.

Admittedly, a great game, we've just had our own 3-3 which i'm buzzing about.

But it's already begun, a draw is a great result. I'd take a scrappy 1-0 over a game of the season, and beat Liverpool, every time.

Players who actually give a toss and arent just happy strolling around the park and collecting their wage packet. Players playing with a smile on their face. Winning the odd game. Not being in a relegation scrap. Not starting Mark Noble every single match without fail.

We’re not where Everton are, we’re miles behind in terms of expectations. I’d imagine most of the above is just expected at Everton but they are things we have rarely seen down at our rented athletics track.

You've recruited terribly, again, can relate. My biggest criticism of Martinez, Koeman reign is we signed players, who are mercenaries. Uninterested, Unmotivated.

Osman, Jagielka, Distin started until they were basically picking up a pension.

But whilst we're ahead of where you are, we've relented with the same garbage you have, bad signings, bad owners, Allardyce, Moyes.

@DonJulio

 

[DonJulio]

Each to their own, at least we can agree, he's a cracking player.

But he'll be accomodated, if you sign a main striker in he summer, which would probably be on the wing.

At the risk of sounding argumentative, I’d be very surprised if he got moved out to the wing. Moyes and Antonio have both stated that down the middle is his best position. We just desperately need another option up there as his hammy are made of cheesestring!

I'm more making a comment on defensive of Moyes over last night. You keep referring to the league, when I was making the point that you must be frustrated with your performance yesterday. United, resting players, and you rolling over in Moyes style.

Fair enough. Well, looking at last night in isolation I honestly wasn’t frustrated with the performance as I wasn’t expecting anything out of it. With Antonio missing, we have no one who can step in and play that role up top. Yarmolenko has his strengths but he’s so unsuited to that role it’s embarrassing.

Or Moyes. Moyes will get the fans on board quickly, by achieving decent returns with a diabolical board.

This is where I disagree as the guy is working with one hand behind his back and yet he’s got us 6th in the table.

We're not that dissimilar, but the reality is, you've spent money... just poorly. We got a loan of planet rock, to afford a striker, you spent £80m+ on Anderson and Haller and now both aren't with you.

And this is where GSB’s spin comes into it. We haven’t spent that much money, a lot less than you guys, and when we have spent, it tends to be on targets that Sullivan picks. He‘ll then act surprised when it doesn’t work. Haller was a GSB pick, Pellegrini wanted Maxi Gomez at the time. Anderson was suggested to GSB by an agent friend, Pellegrini still agreed to it but it wasn’t one of his picks specifically (same with Yarmolenko).

We currently employ one full-time scout last time I checked and we have league one level facilities, the training ground is essentially a couple of portakabins on some playing fields.

Now, part of Moyes’ remit off the pitch for me, will be standing up to Sullivan and demanding that we have certain structures put in place - namely, an actual scouting team etc.

I’ve Babbled on a bit there mate but just trying to give you am idea of what is going on in the background at our circus of a club and some of the reasons why I am willing to give Moyes more leeway than you’d expect.


edit - In all that waffling I forgot to add it’s not just the signings but the sales as well. None of us were begging for Haller to stay, but to not sign a replacement when we had the whole window to do so is criminal, even if it was just someone in on loan.

 

[brigadier]

we’re not fuming with Moyes, we’re fuming at G$B

we have a threadbare squad that is running on fumes, not surprised we picked up injuries last night, our only senior striker is out injured

moyes is doing a superb job with one hand tied behind his back, yet another transfer window where we weakened the squad and made a profit

the issue isn’t Moyes, it’s his bosses....

A nice slender defeat at old Trafford, nobody does that better than moyes, yarmelenko with no pace upfront on his own with no back up is his trade mark, giving the kids a chance then throwing them under the bus when they dont win the game is something west ham will have to get used to, it was years before I got wise to him, if you think hes going to bad mouth the board dont hold your breath, a heads up for the future, "where is the Declan rice money gone".

 

[DonJulio]

A nice slender defeat at old Trafford, nobody does that better than moyes, yarmelenko with no pace upfront on his own with no back up is his trade mark, giving the kids a chance then throwing them under the bus when they dont win the game is something west ham will have to get used to, it was years before I got wise to him, if you think hes going to bad mouth the board dont hold your breath, a heads up for the future, "where is the Declan rice money gone".

Who would you have started up front last night?

 

[brigadier]

Who would you have started up front last night?

Admittedly it was tough but I'm willing to bet if that was lesser opposition lanzini and benrahma start, yarmelenko had no back up at all last night, man u defence is not that good, it's not the defeat it's the acceptance of it before a ball is kicked.

 

[Yarrgh]

we’re not fuming with Moyes, we’re fuming at G$B

we have a threadbare squad that is running on fumes, not surprised we picked up injuries last night, our only senior striker is out injured

moyes is doing a superb job with one hand tied behind his back, yet another transfer window where we weakened the squad and made a profit

the issue isn’t Moyes, it’s his bosses....

That's how he spent so long with us. He was hamstrung by the club's finances and never was able to build on the good foundation work he did, and had an excuse not to break into the level above. He became stale after several seasons and was with us a few seasons too long. Who knows what would have happened if he had better backing when he still had upward momentum - we'll never know.

Sure he'll turn things around and steady the ship, but it's a question as to how long it takes before any fan base starts looking up the table and wanting to challenge. If your owners don't back him, then you'll keep getting what you are getting now. It's not bad, but eventually you will want more.

 

[barneygumble]

@DonJulio

At the risk of sounding argumentative, I’d be very surprised if he got moved out to the wing. Moyes and Antonio have both stated that down the middle is his best position. We just desperately need another option up there as his hammy are made of cheesestring!

Mate, don't worry. It's part and parcel of being a football fan, having a bit of debate and trying to see each others point of view.

Fair enough. Well, looking at last night in isolation I honestly wasn’t frustrated with the performance as I wasn’t expecting anything out of it. With Antonio missing, we have no one who can step in and play that role up top. Yarmolenko has his strengths but he’s so unsuited to that role it’s embarrassing.

See, maybe that's where we differ.

We're starved of success, and we've had 15 years less of it. I want to win every game, I want to win every cup.

Yarmolenko may not have strengths, but given the form you're in, i'd want more from that, every day of the week.

This is where I disagree as the guy is working with one hand behind his back and yet he’s got us 6th in the table.

You're having a good season, he's got you on board. He's not playing great football, but gritty, result getting football. He is frustrating, it's like having a talented kid in a classroom, who showcases glimpses of brilliance, but it stays at glimpses. It'll frustrate the hell out of you winning at Everton then labouring to a 1-1 draw with Burnley etc...

And this is where GSB’s spin comes into it. We haven’t spent that much money, a lot less than you guys, and when we have spent, it tends to be on targets that Sullivan picks. He‘ll then act surprised when it doesn’t work. Haller was a GSB pick, Pellegrini wanted Maxi Gomez at the time. Anderson was suggested to GSB by an agent friend, Pellegrini still agreed to it but it wasn’t one of his picks specifically (same with Yarmolenko).

We currently employ one full-time scout last time I checked and we have league one level facilities, the training ground is essentially a couple of portakabins on some playing fields.

Now, part of Moyes’ remit off the pitch for me, will be standing up to Sullivan and demanding that we have certain structures put in place - namely, an actual scouting team etc.

I’ve Babbled on a bit there mate but just trying to give you am idea of what is going on in the background at our circus of a club and some of the reasons why I am willing to give Moyes more leeway than you’d expect.


edit - In all that waffling I forgot to add it’s not just the signings but the sales as well. None of us were begging for Haller to stay, but to not sign a replacement when

we had the whole window to do so is criminal, even if it was just someone in on loan.

Whilst i can't say I pay attention too much to West Ham's spending, and the in's and out's of GSB, the one thing I can say is, there seems to be something rotten within West Ham, something which plagued us.

But mark my words, Moyes will bring some very decent players in Soucek, Coufal look great, but he'll also not push. Put yourself in his shoes... £65k a week, to do just enough, to never lose your job, whilst watering down expectations that a club with huge potential should be happy to sit near the big boys, meaning fans will be content. He can't lose. Stay on board with GSB and he keeps his job. The league is more competitive nowadays, so regular 9th place finishes, with an occasional cup run, if that's what you want it's what you'll get.

Try to enjoy it, because it isn't half dour.

 

[mahermi1]

For sure, there is an element of him being too cautious at times and as you correctly point out, money was tight for a lot of the Kenright era. Looking at last night specifically, I have no qualms about him setting up like that as we didn’t have a fit senior striker.

He saw it wasn’t working at half time and changed our shape and we looked marginally better but the issue is with our backups. As soon as we lose a key player (eg. Antonio), we don’t have the adequate backups to stand in. That’s on the board who promised a replacement for Haller when they cashed in on him in January.

Like us though, previous managers at your club, seemed to have spent a fortune on mercenaries on high wages for high fees and your owners are now doing what seems to be the sensible thing, cutting wages. Not popular I know but due to the pandemic, no crowd money coming in, losing money off our media deals, surely that has to be done.

 

[DonJulio]

Admittedly it was tough but I'm willing to bet if that was lesser opposition lanzini and benrahma start, yarmelenko had no back up at all last night, man u defence is not that good, it's not the defeat it's the acceptance of it before a ball is kicked.

Lanzini and Benrahma (like Yarmolenko) aren’t strikers and I think it’s fair to say they are built very differently to Antonio!

 

[DonJulio]

Like us though, previous managers at your club, seemed to have spent a fortune on mercenaries on high wages for high fees and your owners are now doing what seems to be the sensible thing, cutting wages. Not popular I know but due to the pandemic, no crowd money coming in, losing money off our media deals, surely that has to be done.

A lot of the bigger signings werent picked by the managers though. They were down to Sullivan and his agent pals playing real life Football Manager (Will Salthouse etc).

Cutting wages is one thing but Sullivan has asset stripped the squad now. We have one senior striker on our books who struggles to stay fit for a season.

We needed to bring in someone as backup in january, even if it was a loan.

apparently the next experiment is going to be Jesse Lingard playing the false 9 role, that’ll be a laugh!