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David Moyes - Taking a knife to a gunfight at West Ham, Part 2

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Chris O'Connor said:
That's a fair point tbh and who knows, one thing in David Moyes favour is he inherited a very similar situation towards the end of the last century when he took over from the now sadly departed Walter Smith. At the time we were heading to the championship at a rate of knots and in dire straits. Moyes rescued us and brought is to much calmer waters, I remember David Unsworth scoring in Moyes crucial first game in charge at home to Fulham.

Moyes is never a quick fix though and it took time to build a team capable of challenging in the top half. Finishing in the top four in 2005 above Liverpool represented a fine reversal of fortunes from where we were when he took over.

It has to be the right club though and I would never claim he was right for United after Sir Alex left, equally his time abroad was always going to be difficult if you're in Spain at a lesser club and not Real, Barca or Atletico. He's now found his second Everton at the London Stadium and his happy hammers.
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For what it's worth I wouldn't have wanted Moyes back simply on the basis that he had 11 years and didn't win anything here. So bringing him back suggested the same would happen, I mean 11 years is unheard of now.

He would have been perfect in this set up with a dof but as you say it would take time and although we are in the same situation, the board probably want a little more success quicker than Moyes would suggest.

To some extent Moyes has got lucky at West ham. Antonio hitting the form of his life and a couple of good signings gave him a foundation there. I mean without Antonio he would have struggled for goals quite a bit. Just one of them really, he was our manager and unless we go down and need to start fresh, it's probably not wise to ever bring him back.
 
Ghost Rider said:
To some extent Moyes has got lucky at West ham. Antonio hitting the form of his life and a couple of good signings gave him a foundation there. I mean without Antonio he would have struggled for goals quite a bit. Just one of them really, he was our manager and unless we go down and need to start fresh, it's probably not wise to ever bring him back.
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Antonio was a wide player before Moyes recognised his potential as s main target man. Moyes was always astute with his signings and has done it again at West Ham. He hasn't spent a fortune by any means but quickly assembled a very competitive team.

Success is always relative, for although the hammers have won a few FA cups they've never come anywhere near winning the league. Really a top six or seven position is like winning the league for them. Traditionally they've always been midtable at the very best and often struggle further down.

Moyes has only been there one season and a bit (this his second season) and already has them in Europe and going extremely well on all fronts this term. He's been there before saving them from relegation but was only on a short term contract and rehired later.

He must be under no illusions they haven't the squad to compete on all fronts, the FA cup in January may add to league cup, Europa knockout stages and competing for top European places again in the league, this is far too much for their resources atm.

He'll have to prioritise and perhaps field reserve teams in the league or FA cup or in both. They're top of their Europa group and win a knockout round or two and suddenly they're a real contender to win the Europa League this season. I would think qualifying for the Champions or Europa League will also be high on his agenda.
 
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Chris O'Connor said:
Antonio was a wide player before Moyes recognised his potential as s main target man. Moyes was always astute with his signings and has done it again at West Ham. He hasn't spent a fortune by any means but quickly assembled a very competitive team.

Success is always relative, for although the hammers have won a few FA cups they've never come anywhere near winning the league. Really a top six or seven position is like winning the league for them. Traditionally they've always been midtable at the very best and often struggle further down.

Moyes has only been there one season and a bit (this his second season) and already has them in Europe and going extremely well on all fronts this term. He's been there before saving them from relegation but was only on a short term contract and rehired later.

He must be under no illusions they haven't the squad to compete on all fronts, the FA cup in January may add to league cup, Europa knockout stages and competing for top European places again in the league, this is far too much for their resources atm.

He'll have to prioritise and perhaps field reserve teams in the league or FA cup or in both. They're top of their Europa group and win a knockout round or two and suddenly they're a real contender to win the Europa League this season. I would think qualifying for the Champions or Europa League will also be high on his agenda.
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That of course is the opposite of what Moyes did here.

Here, he brought strikers in and had them running up and down the wing :dance:
 

Khalekan said:
That of course is the opposite of what Moyes did here.

Here, he brought strikers in and had them running up and down the wing :dance:
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Must be me but I don't recall big Dunc's days as a winger or Nikica Jelavic crossing the ball that often for Steven Piennar to try his best in the middle.

I do remember Moyes having to use Cahill as an emergency false number 9 and Fellaini being tried up front when injuries left few options.

Must be my memory going lol
 
davek said:
It's self evident that a manager who reached a maximum of 65 points in 11 years is inferior to his successor who comes in and uses his players to get 7 more points out of them.

Does that really need rationalising? I'd have though it was glaringly obvious myself.
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I am going to run with the point that you make, "His players to get 7 more points.....". Yes. his players, instilled with his defensive discipline. The structure and organization that Moyes put into that side of the team lingered even after he left.

Once the great bobby-martinez methods of defending got through to the team next year and next year where did we finish? 11th and 11th wasn't it? Oh and we collected a grand total of 47 and 47 points both times. Plus, 2013-14 we had GA of 39 next two years we gave away 55 and 50 goals. The defensive players became sxxx in the second year of Martinez reign? And, last two years of Moyes' stay at us we had +10 and +15 GD, three years of Martinez netted +22 (I believe due to Moyes' structure) and the tapered into -2 and +4. That too with Romelu Lukaku banging in the goals. So by that measure Martinez must really be a horrible manager, I think...

Of course, I am not a "football-expert" as you are or think you are, but I firmly believe that the first year success of Martinez was all down the structure and mentality instilled by Moyes, but hey I ain't no expert so, whatever you say must be correct....
 
JobForTheMoyes said:
Beating Man City is like picking cherries for the big man!
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Moyes had a poor record in big games for sure. But he was on a hiding to nothing in that 09 FA Cup final with the injuries. I don't consider that game, part of the David Moyes bottle job collection at Everton. Whilst his record against the neighbours was very poor, he has always had Citys number always. We could very well have beaten them in that 2013 Fa Cup final, if it wasn't for the Wigan fiasco!
 
PhoenixFirebird said:
I am going to run with the point that you make, "His players to get 7 more points.....". Yes. his players, instilled with his defensive discipline. The structure and organization that Moyes put into that side of the team lingered even after he left.

Once the great bobby-martinez methods of defending got through to the team next year and next year where did we finish? 11th and 11th wasn't it? Oh and we collected a grand total of 47 and 47 points both times. Plus, 2013-14 we had GA of 39 next two years we gave away 55 and 50 goals. The defensive players became sxxx in the second year of Martinez reign? And, last two years of Moyes' stay at us we had +10 and +15 GD, three years of Martinez netted +22 (I believe due to Moyes' structure) and the tapered into -2 and +4. That too with Romelu Lukaku banging in the goals. So by that measure Martinez must really be a horrible manager, I think...

Of course, I am not a "football-expert" as you are or think you are, but I firmly believe that the first year success of Martinez was all down the structure and mentality instilled by Moyes, but hey I ain't no expert so, whatever you say must be correct....
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Martinez took Moyes' Dad's Army and added Lukaku, Deulofeu and Barry...and taught them all how to pass a ball. THAT is how we got the Camelot season, nothing to do with Moyes.
 

Ghost Rider said:
For what it's worth I wouldn't have wanted Moyes back simply on the basis that he had 11 years and didn't win anything here. So bringing him back suggested the same would happen, I mean 11 years is unheard of now.

He would have been perfect in this set up with a dof but as you say it would take time and although we are in the same situation, the board probably want a little more success quicker than Moyes would suggest.

To some extent Moyes has got lucky at West ham. Antonio hitting the form of his life and a couple of good signings gave him a foundation there. I mean without Antonio he would have struggled for goals quite a bit. Just one of them really, he was our manager and unless we go down and need to start fresh, it's probably not wise to ever bring him back.
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In fairness to him, he was always the bit of cash we did not have from winning something with us. He also can maintain a level once achieved. Man U made a massive mistake not giving him three seasons.
 
Chris O'Connor said:
Must be me but I don't recall big Dunc's days as a winger or Nikica Jelavic crossing the ball that often for Steven Piennar to try his best in the middle.

I do remember Moyes having to use Cahill as an emergency false number 9 and Fellaini being tried up front when injuries left few options.

Must be my memory going lol
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Do you not recall Beattie, AJ, and indeed Jekavic himself being made to “run the channels”, Chris :)
 

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