Do we need a DOF?

[chrismpw]

It's merely just a tool like many others and is used as such, it also gives a way to clubs of actually being able to track players on how they performing/improving/not doing enough, as someone with a science background I would have thought you would realise that the "eye test" really isn't an acceptable resource at this level of the game, you need a bit more than that. I do agree that some of the younger generation of fans now seem to think the game is played on paper and want to quote endless numbers/stats but most of the time they fail to take into account the flaws and variables concerned with those stats. The fatter cheque book is an easy excuse for lazy clubs tbh. Look at clubs like Brentford and Brighton, they have shown that with small budgets and good use of data and recruitment over a period of time you can build a decent team/club. Look at Napoli in Italy, shown very similar and they have possibly the 2 most sought after players in football in Osimhen and Kvaratskhelia and will probably go on and win Serie A and the Champions League.
The only bubble is the one a lot of our fanbase want to stay living in as the rest of the league just passes us by it's no wonder we fail at everything.

I have enough knowledge of science to know that data isn't the be all and end all. A monkey with a clipboard can collect data. That isn't science, the science is the CORRECT peer reviewed interpretation of the data that is then the basis for testing and further experimentation. That's not what's happening in football, I doubt, at any level.

The eye test is valid. To illustrate, I have spent 30+ years designing and building loudspeakers aa an interest. I use science and calculation to create something theoretically as close to perfect as possible, then throw the science out of the window and fine tune by ear.

 

[banno]

No they didn't though? They got players recommended by trusted people (scouts, etc.) or by closer people and other managers.

But then they usually scouted those recommended players to see for themselves. Ultimately final decision with the manager

 

[Neiler]

That might have something to do with the fact that we are possibly the worst run club in the country. I mean it's amazing the way that it seems to work everywhere else no matter what the country or what the league apart from here which would suggest that it's the club that's the issue rather than the role itself. The role also needs to be given time so the person can actually implement what they want to do (Thelwell seems to be getting that) it's keeping the board away from the first team that's important for us and letting people get on with their jobs.

If its that universal mate. Then its a success and failure every where, there will be teams winning and having success and others not. I dont think you can just point to everywhere and say "its a success everywhere". Id wholly accept the poor governance at the club, but my point was also about the disimprovment of other metrics directly in the remit of the DOF outside of direct board influence and directly in the remit of the DOF.

I also accept its needs time, i wont critise Thelwell until, three years in. But its been in place now what - 7 years and all metrics have disimproved and the value has been poor for the resources invested.

I want this model to work as we seemed married to it, but the clear evidence is - it hasn't driven improvement nor yielded value - in fact a fair argument to be made to the contrary, so the OP question is valid.

 

[DualityNSNO]

But then they usually scouted those recommended players to see for themselves. Ultimately final decision with the manager

Yeah but they didn't scout everyone of those 50 players at any given time.

If they did - does that not highlight the need for a good scouting and DoF team even more? To delegate the initial scouting to others and then to go and scout the seeded players themselves?

DoF's job in that scenario would be to find (together with the scouting team) several players in position X that fit the manager's demands for technique, style of play, etc., then to discuss which one would be most optimal. Currently with the advances of video and analysis the manager doesn't need to go and see them unless they really want to anyway.

 

[banno]

Yeah but they didn't scout everyone of those 50 players at any given time.

If they did - does that not highlight the need for a good scouting and DoF team even more? To delegate the initial scouting to others and then to go and scout the seeded players themselves?

DoF's job in that scenario would be to find (together with the scouting team) several players in position X that fit the manager's demands for technique, style of play, etc., then to discuss which one would be most optimal. Currently with the advances of video and analysis the manager doesn't need to go and see them unless they really want to anyway.

The manager should say yes or no and for them to pass that judgement they either go to see them themselves or watch the numerous video and make a decision. Yes the DoF should overlook the scouting team and put suggestions only to the manager for the manager to see if he deems a suitable fit for the managers team and tactics. That will then provide more square pegs in square holes. I also think the manager should dictate how he wants the youth teams etc to set up so he will be in total charge. Therefore in my opinion we do not really need a DoF just a chief scout

 

[Nymzee]

DoF and chairman and owner and whoever else high up decides how they want their club to play.
DoF hires manager/head coach that can fit that style
DoF and scouts find players for that system they feel aren't currently at the club
DoF and manager buys players that suit that style ability and personality
DoF makes sure academy also plays that style
DoF buys academy players that suit that style but are currently missing
Manager coaches the players
Manager sucks? Sack him
DoF hires another manager that suits the system of the club

Rinse and repeat for a healthy, sustainable PL club.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

I’m not sure the DOF model works for every club

It does for some and doesn’t for others

 

[blueconverse]

3 pretty bad ones in a row suggests maybe not.

 

[Connor]

Need? No
Could do with a good one? Maybe

 

[PeregrineT]

Right now Bill Kenwright is the DOF, and you are fooling yourself into thinking Dyche will be given control over Bill, even if Dyche wanted to fill that role.

The whole discussion is meaningless until the board and in particular Bill are sacked. No DOF or manager will be allowed to be the decision maker here until then.

 

[cantlivewithem]

Threlwell hasnt set the world alight. Its too early to know whether all the restructuring behind the scenes he is doing will prove of value. In terms of signs, the failure to bring in any quality attackers is an issue but he signed Tarks, Onana and Garner in the last summer window that look like sound investments. Garner admittedly hasnt played but i think he will prove a useful buy

 

[Simon Buttle]

If its that universal mate. Then its a success and failure every where, there will be teams winning and having success and others not. I dont think you can just point to everywhere and say "its a success everywhere". Id wholly accept the poor governance at the club, but my point was also about the disimprovment of other metrics directly in the remit of the DOF outside of direct board influence and directly in the remit of the DOF.

I also accept its needs time, i wont critise Thelwell until, three years in. But its been in place now what - 7 years and all metrics have disimproved and the value has been poor for the resources invested.

I want this model to work as we seemed married to it, but the clear evidence is - it hasn't driven improvement nor yielded value - in fact a fair argument to be made to the contrary, so the OP question is valid.

It's not for me though as nothing we have done DoF or anything else for that matter has actually "worked" as such and tbh for all the relative stability of top half finishes under Moyes the club was still an utter basket case off the pitch, penny pinching left right and centre due to Kenwrights dodgy dealings. We are just a poorly run club at the end of the day and it makes it hard to implement things imo.

 

[Blue peter]

There nothing wrong with the DoF model, many successful teams have one. There is plenty wrong with the EFC DoF model because of a lack of accountability, transparency and tonnes of interference - it’s not the model at fault, but the personnel.

Saying this model doesn’t work is the equivalent of saying a formation doesn’t work when it does for other teams…..it’s always about the execution from the people involved

 

[perth_blue]

Happy to be proved wrong, cause I don't actually know. But, Moyes did pick players, but was he actually sat down and doing all the negotiating with fees and wages etc, when signing a player?
Or could a staff member have been doing that. Which in essence is what we have happening atm?

 

[Blue peter]

Team had been winning nothing for 30 years nothing to do with a DoF.
The problem with this club is the antiquated and rotten structure that has left us moribund,
Very few clubs do not employ DoFs and very few managers want to do the job of DoF.
But if you want your manager to spend his time with agents , negotiating wages , making sure the scouts in various countries are performing well, looking after the welfare of the players, overseeing that the coaches at various levels of the academy are doing their job and producing a sufficient quality through the system up to the u21 and first team level and ensuring that he has a list of his own potential successors in the event of his inevitable sacking , then fine.
Presumably while Dyche is dealing with all the footballing side of the club one of his coaches could train the team , select the players, and fine tune the tactics?

Absolutely. That’s very similar to what was found at Man Utd following Ferguson’s departure - there was no infrastructure to allow for continuity…..all of the success was down to one man’s judgment. The closest they came to continuity was Ferguson advising Moyes to keep on his coaches - advice not heeded by Moyes.

To a far lesser extent the same happed with us, after having 11 years of Moyes, the club then had no identity and within a few years attempted to incorporate the DoF Model by people used to having more of a say, hence the structures ineffectiveness now at the club