ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

[arch stanton]

To be fair to the lad he did invent the disguised pass. Credit where it’s due.

I used to disguise passes by accidentally slicing/hooking the 'kin ball out of play. No one hailed me as a genius.

 

[anton66]

One shot on target.

There really is no game that they fail to win that doesn’t involve a massive scandal of some sort, either a penalty not given/incorrectly awarded to the opposition, wrongly disallowed goal/opposition should’ve had one disallowed, opposition should’ve had a red card, fixtures being played too close to each other, opposition played defensive football which shouldn’t be allowed. Every single time without fail, they have never just deservedly lost a game of football through playing poorly or the opposition being good. I’m absolutely sick of it, it’s not even funny anymore.

They cryarse to head of refereeing Mike Riley after every defeat/draw hoping for a more favorable ref next time.

 

[saintquin]

The absolute cheek.

I know I'm probably biased but, I don't think that was a penalty.
KWP and Mane did make contact but, not enough for Mane to go down or did it stop him running. After the contact Mane took a step or two then realised he couldn't get to the ball before it went out of play, so dived.
After all the talk about liverpool missing so many players not heard much about Saints missing 4 or 5 starters from last nights team!

 

[catcherintherye]

I think there's a simpler explanation than fatigue and schedules, mate: this Liverpool first team squad are not good enough to win the title. They may still do it if the challengers fall away, but they, under their own steam, are not capable of taking control of a title race - they are not the force of the last 3/4 seasons. They did remarkably well with a relatively small number of players in the last 2 seasons free from major injury; but now they have normal levels of injury that other title contenders have to cope with and they are just in the mix...and falling away on current form.

City and United both have stronger squads. Let's see if they seize their chance this season as Liverpool move along the downward curve.

Yes thats all fair. They did have 2 exceptional seasons though. So it's worth considering the drop off.

They won a lot of games narrowly and VVD/Alisson made a massive difference. Alongside the front 3, and particularly Salah who was world class it forme dthe base of their performance. Once you start taking 1 or 2 of the above out though, and some start ageing a bit it's funny how the rest start dipping in form as well.

Essentially, this current rut, to me at least, is not going to be resolved with a 10 day break. It's clear it's more severe and structural than that now. I mean I'd love to see a league table from Watford onwards (who really set the template for how to beat them). I'd imagine you are seeing a drop off of 50%+ in terms of points over what is now quite a prolonged period.

 

[PaulPowersTash]

One shot on target.

They cryarse to head of refereeing Mike Riley after every defeat/draw hoping for a more favorable ref next time.

They do it because it works for them and they get away with it.
Look at the song & dance Klopp made about the match schedules & rest time between games.
The next thing that happened is that they got scheduled to play 4 games over 16 days during
the Christmas / New Year period. Virtually every other club were playing circa every 2 days.
They also got late kick off times for 7 of their 8 games in December just by coincidence...
Its virtually the same in January for the kick off times. The media, who are scared to death of
them never call them out on it and in fact act like their cheer leaders.

 

[rylojr]

I don't know where in the world your from ofcourse, but I can definitely enjoy watching kopites where I live lose their minds because Utd won the league from them on penalties, the meltdown will be fantastic, better if we win it ofcourse but I'll take city or utd sticking it to them and bringing the cocky little tits back down to earth


There is still the odd house with flags in the window round here FFS

Meffs aren't they. Bet they wear bad clobber and don't wash like that Mick Philpott

 

[wba83]

Ireland.. over the 20 odd years of United dominance their fans here were far more obnoxious than Liverpool fans ever were, they are coming out of the woodwork again after hiding for a few years. I'd honestly rather see Liverpool win it than United.

Spend a week in our shoes on Merseyside mate and I guarantee you will change you mind .Honestly we have had to put up RS who hand on heart I didn’t even know were RS coming out the woodwork spouting utter Barry white because there winning .I have a standard question for the gobshites when they start on about how great they are .who was the manager before bill shank 10/10 it’s a tumble weed moment so for me I don’t even want them to win the coin toss at the start of the game never mind anything else

 

[Tipp blue]

Spend a week in our shoes on Merseyside mate and I guarantee you will change you mind .Honestly we have had to put up RS who hand on heart I didn’t even know were RS coming out the woodwork spouting utter Barry white because there winning .I have a standard question for the gobshites when they start on about how great they are .who was the manager before bill shank 10/10 it’s a tumble weed moment so for me I don’t even want them to win the coin toss at the start of the game never mind anything else

No doubt in my mind that this is the case, but over here the united fans were the worst.

 

[rylojr]

Spend a week in our shoes on Merseyside mate and I guarantee you will change you mind .Honestly we have had to put up RS who hand on heart I didn’t even know were RS coming out the woodwork spouting utter Barry white because there winning .I have a standard question for the gobshites when they start on about how great they are .who was the manager before bill shank 10/10 it’s a tumble weed moment so for me I don’t even want them to win the coin toss at the start of the game never mind anything else

This all day. Growing up in the city, having to go through school, work and general life here and being subjected for decades to the inescapable cult propaganda shyte they endlessly spout is just hell. Add to that the shame, disgrace and general cringe they bring upon themselves...

There really is no comparison.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I think there's a simpler explanation than fatigue and schedules, mate: this Liverpool first team squad are not good enough to win the title. They may still do it if the challengers fall away, but they, under their own steam, are not capable of taking control of a title race - they are not the force of the last 3/4 seasons. They did remarkably well with a relatively small number of players in the last 2 seasons free from major injury; but now they have normal levels of injury that other title contenders have to cope with and they are just in the mix...and falling away on current form.

City and United both have stronger squads. Let's see if they seize their chance this season as Liverpool move along the downward curve.

City’s excuses were credible last season. Kompany left and wasn’t replaced, Laporte got an injury so they had no credible CB pairing. Aguero was injured for long periods, Sane was crocked, and Silva declined hugely. They also had the realisation that they weren’t winning the league as early as November and that fixed game at Anfield and focussed on the CL. Despite that they still posted a low 80s points tally. They essentially lost 4 of their best players and had the refs against them all season.

Apart from Van Dijk and Gomez, Liverpool haven’t lost any of their players from last season. Indeed they’ve actually strengthened by getting Thiago Minamino Jota and Tsimikas in with Oxlade Chamberlain returning and losing no key players.

It’s effectively the same team just missing two centrebacks. They’ve not even been that bad defensively though, and the loss of two players to injury doesn’t explain how a team can go from having what looks like the best player in the world in every position to Alexander Arnold looking like he’s won a competition to play football and Firmino looking like a bum. This is not a natural decline in a team, they’re looking at dropping from almost 100 points pace to mid 70s, freakishly mirroring their sudden rapid improvement 2 seasons ago. Which is convenient seeing as 2 seasons is the generally accepted limit that a team can supplement for before long term damage to players.

People will always deny it and it will never be proven that they doped but this has always been a bang average Liverpool team without any of the ingredients to win a league.

World class keeper - fair enough they had this

Defence - They had a kid at RB, a bloke from Southampton next to another kid at CB, and a player from Hull at left back,

Midfield - none of their midfielders score more than about 3 a season, none would be at the top of the assists charts

Striker - no natural number 9 you can bank on for 20 a season

You then looked at their squad depth and they had no decent cover for any single position on the pitch except perhaps midfield.

That is never a title winning formula even if the target was low 80s. It was never ever close to a formula for getting 90 plus points, but it was certainly nowhere near a set up that could go to almost 100 points for two seasons in a row! They were battering everyone home and away barely conceding a shot on target. The consistency of performances for two seasons was identical every single week from every single player. No one had a bad game, no one had injuries, no one got tired, no one player dropped their level ever. It was only an extremely fortuitous performance by Atletico, with some world class keeping by Oblak, and a howler by Adrian, that cost them winning two CLs in a row and a third final in three seasons.

They doped, it’s as clear as day, this team was a Frankenstein monster, James Milner trampling all over the likes of Kante and De Bruyne, their B team thrashing Barca 4-0 despite playing a few days earlier when Barca had rested. A sudden shoot up in performance levels to a level they’d never been at and now it’s all coming crashing back down.

Even before his injury Van Dijk was all over the shop. Patrick Balford embarassed him on opening day and then Villa made him look like a clown. Alexander Arnold has gone from being the best player in the world to arguably the weakest right back in the top 6. Their midfield now looks like the collection of average cloggers it is struggling to create. The front three have gone from the world’s best forward players to struggling to hit a barn door. Players don’t just all improve at the same time, and all decline at the same time.

They doped, and the league didn’t want City dominance so skewed VAR in their favour (in much the same way it a probably in United’s favour now). That is the story of the 2019/20 season. If people honestly believe that a bit of novel kick and rush tactics is enough to bypass all the limitations of that squad for 2 seasons in a way no other team in history has managed then that’s up to them but I’ve never seen anything like this team anywhere else and the rise and falls in form are comeltlelly an utterly unnatural .

 

[degsy]

I think the selling point has already gone. For me it was the summer of 2018, Madrid or Barca would have looked at any of their front three and gone ‘just coming into their prime, not yet on mega wages, best days ahead’ and had the cash to buy them. Plus they wouldn’t have had to do a hard sell, Madrid and Barca were far more appealing at the time.

Now though these players are 28/29. Madrid and Barca just don’t buy players at this point for mega fees and for good reason because their best years are either limited or already behind them. The oldest was probably Suarez at 27 who was smack in his prime and didn’t really ever have much pace anyway. He was also miles better than any of their three now.

There’s just no way a business case stacks up for these players. A pace player, who works well in a high pressing system (which neither of them play), has too many miles in the tank already (e.g Firmino is no longer good enough for either of them) so might decline very quickly after 30, demands a huge fee in the market (which neither can afford), will have no resale value, only Salah has any commercial value, they will demand a huge wage because they’re already on that at Liverpool and none of them are better than some of the players already in place (Hazard).

Compare that with targets like Haaland , Sancho, Mbappe. All have their primes ahead of them, all would probably cost the same. The Dortmund lads might even be on lower wages. All have huge commercial value as the next stars of the game. They’ll hold any resale value for longer if they become unwanted at some point.

If you’re an exec in the boardrooms of Madrid or Barcelona it’s not even a question. A star for the now and future or for the same price a player on the decline? Top clubs don’t buy those types of players.

My view is that Salah will agitate for a move, and not get it, but will use it to get a better deal at Liverpool, which Klopp will give him to keep his team happy. Firmino knows he’s not moving upwards anywhere now so will angle for a longer deal and Mane probably will do the same. Klopp will then go off into the sunset as soon as he stops winning and leave that front three, Thiago, Henderson, Van Dijk, all on eye watering contracts and all in decline for the next manager to sort out.

I do hope so

 

[Shevin Keedy]

City’s excuses were credible last season. Kompany left and wasn’t replaced, Laporte got an injury so they had no credible CB pairing. Aguero was injured for long periods, Sane was crocked, and Silva declined hugely. They also had the realisation that they weren’t winning the league as early as November and that fixed game at Anfield and focussed on the CL. Despite that they still posted a low 80s points tally. They essentially lost 4 of their best players and had the refs against them all season.

Apart from Van Dijk and Gomez, Liverpool haven’t lost any of their players from last season. Indeed they’ve actually strengthened by getting Thiago Minamino Jota and Tsimikas in with Oxlade Chamberlain returning and losing no key players.

It’s effectively the same team just missing two centrebacks. They’ve not even been that bad defensively though, and the loss of two players to injury doesn’t explain how a team can go from having what looks like the best player in the world in every position to Alexander Arnold looking like he’s won a competition to play football and Firmino looking like a bum. This is not a natural decline in a team, they’re looking at dropping from almost 100 points pace to mid 70s, freakishly mirroring their sudden rapid improvement 2 seasons ago. Which is convenient seeing as 2 seasons is the generally accepted limit that a team can supplement for before long term damage to players.

People will always deny it and it will never be proven that they doped but this has always been a bang average Liverpool team without any of the ingredients to win a league.

World class keeper - fair enough they had this

Defence - They had a kid at RB, a bloke from Southampton next to another kid at CB, and a player from Hull at left back,

Midfield - none of their midfielders score more than about 3 a season, none would be at the top of the assists charts

Striker - no natural number 9 you can bank on for 20 a season

You then looked at their squad depth and they had no decent cover for any single position on the pitch except perhaps midfield.

That is never a title winning formula even if the target was low 80s. It was never ever close to a formula for getting 90 plus points, but it was certainly nowhere near a set up that could go to almost 100 points for two seasons in a row! They were battering everyone home and away barely conceding a shot on target. The consistency of performances for two seasons was identical every single week from every single player. No one had a bad game, no one had injuries, no one got tired, no one player dropped their level ever. It was only an extremely fortuitous performance by Atletico, with some world class keeping by Oblak, and a howler by Adrian, that cost them winning two CLs in a row and a third final in three seasons.

They doped, it’s as clear as day, this team was a Frankenstein monster, James Milner trampling all over the likes of Kante and De Bruyne, their B team thrashing Barca 4-0 despite playing a few days earlier when Barca had rested. A sudden shoot up in performance levels to a level they’d never been at and now it’s all coming crashing back down.

Even before his injury Van Dijk was all over the shop. Patrick Balford embarassed him on opening day and then Villa made him look like a clown. Alexander Arnold has gone from being the best player in the world to arguably the weakest right back in the top 6. Their midfield now looks like the collection of average cloggers it is struggling to create. The front three have gone from the world’s best forward players to struggling to hit a barn door. Players don’t just all improve at the same time, and all decline at the same time.

They doped, and the league didn’t want City dominance so skewed VAR in their favour (in much the same way it a probably in United’s favour now). That is the story of the 2019/20 season. If people honestly believe that a bit of novel kick and rush tactics is enough to bypass all the limitations of that squad for 2 seasons in a way no other team in history has managed then that’s up to them but I’ve never seen anything like this team anywhere else and the rise and falls in form are comeltlelly an utterly unnatural .

Do you think it will ever be uncovered?

 

[Saint Domingo]

Do you think it will ever be uncovered?

No, too damaging to the brand of the PL, too damaging for bookmakers etc. They’re probably not the only team doing it either. There’s been (and continue to be) performance enhancing drug scandals in every single other sport, even niche ones like track cycling. Yet the biggest game in the world, with the most money at stake has been completely clean all this time. It’s a load of rubbish. It definitely happens and one day there’ll probably be a game wide expose but they’ll probably never be able to pin it on certain teams.

 

[SunKing]

I think they've become a bit stale, the additions of Thiago & Jota should have given them a bit of re-invigoration but both have suffered lengthy lay-offs now. Same group of players going week in week out, season on season basically. Without that injection of hunger to win complacency kicks in.
You have actually got to give them credit for the run they were on prior to the lockdown. It went on far longer than anyone thought. It was aided by minimal injuries (key players) and incredible momentum - similar to Leicester's title winning season.

It could be the beginning of the end for their core players which is where a rebuilding job needs to be implemented in next 12-18 months to bring in young talent and work in to their first team. Issue is I don't think they have the funds to go out their and bring in these players without selling and all their prize assets will be priced too high.

It's difficult to tell with Klopp as his only previous experience at this level was at Dortmund where the rebuild didn't really play out. Maybe he, the board and recruitment have a master plan but I'm doubtful. I think they'll just come to the end of their cycle and go trophy less again until they fall upon another formula. Dynasty's like United under Ferguson are finished I think.

 

[catcherintherye]

No, too damaging to the brand of the PL, too damaging for bookmakers etc. They’re probably not the only team doing it either. There’s been (and continue to be) performance enhancing drug scandals in every single other sport, even niche ones like track cycling. Yet the biggest game in the world, with the most money at stake has been completely clean all this time. It’s a load of rubbish. It definitely happens and one day there’ll probably be a game wide expose but they’ll probably never be able to pin it on certain teams.

If they are doping, why have they stopped, and why won't they just start again?