ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

[MikeH72]

It works the other way as well. Coutinho was pretty average until Klopp came along, sometimes he didn’t even make the Brazilian national team. All of a sudden he then hit an astonishing level where he started to be genuinely compared to the likes of Messi and being talked about as more important than Neymar to the Brazilian team. He then gets an eye watering move to Barcelona where surrounded by better players he suddenly becomes so poor that they loan him out to Bayern who also deem him not good enough for their first team. How do you go from one of the best in the world to fodder in less than a season? Who knows where Emre Can is now but he’s also dropped like a stone from the midfielder Juve moved to get.

The ones that get me the most are the front three though. For other players of that level they’ve been at (Neymar, Messi, Mbappe, Hazard, Ronaldo Rooney Aguero Bale etc. The real best in the world level) the talent of these players is obvious even as a teenager. You can see there’s something special in them and if they fulfill it they’re usually world class by their early 20s regardless of the club they’re at or the pathway they got there. There’s not a single world class forward in that highest bracket I can think of that you didn’t look at at about 23 and think ‘he’s world class’. Even Lukaku who is a level below that was a top player by 20.

Then you get to Liverpool who take a guy from Southampton who was pretty good in his mid 20s, a player who couldn’t make it at Chelsea, and ended up at Roma and was again just pretty good in his mid 20s, and a striker from Hoffenheim who Rodgers couldn’t get a tune out of and was also in his mid 20s and looked ok, and overnight all three of them became not only very good but arguably the three best forwards in world football all at the same time and maintained that level for 2 and a half seasons (at the same time as Coutinho also hit that level)

Seriously though, what other club has this ever happened at? The top clubs weren’t interested in any of these players. So the same scouts who sweep up without fail the likes of Neymar and Messi as teenagers from South America, who saw Ronaldo at Lisbon etc. Not one of these scouts thought Mane or Firmino were good enough for a top club to part coin with even up to their mid 20s when both had been playing in Europe. Chelsea had taken a chance on Salah but was obviously deemed to be not good enough to get Schurrle out the team and only Roma were interested when he was sold.

Yet lo and behold the rest of Europe was wrong and Klopp was right and there were three world class forwards all in their prime all available at market rate that no other top club had noticed. What a genius he is.

Oh and they just happened to arrive as Coutinho went from being so so to having two seasons of also being the best in the world before going back to being so so. Also at exactly the same time that Alexander Arnold came from complete obscurity to be the best right back in the world. At the same time Van Dijk went from Southampton sick note to best in the world, at the same time Wijnaldum went from Newcastle layabout who didn’t turn up away from home to one of the best in the world. What an amazing coincidence to have so many players have a meteoric rise in form all at the same time despite never showing those levels at any other time in their career. Amazing.

Give over. The likes of PSG Madrid and Barca struggle to put a team like that together once in a generation even with unlimited money and their pick of players. Madrid needed Ronaldo Ramos Kroos Modric Bale, literally a collection of the greatest players in the world and some of the best of all time, just to edge a game against the likes of Milner Henderson and Lallana.

No amount of kick and rush tactics or man management or novel fitness regimes can cause that. They doped all of them. You’ll never see the likes of this again and as soon as Klopp leaves the likes of TAA Robertson Gomez Fabinho Jota instead of looking like the best in the world in their positions will suddenly seem like complete carthorses. They’ll end up exactly like Mario Gotze, Niro Sahin, Grosskreutz, Kagawa, Subotic, in that everyone will remember the couple of seasons they were world class then completely disappeared.

I think they’ve been doping before Klopp tbh. Remember when Sturridge who has ligaments made of wet bog roll, just happened to randomly string a near full uninterrupted season together in 2013/14 just as he happened to be alongside Suarez at his peak and every single shot he was hitting was going in?

 

[Saint Domingo]

I think they’ve been doping before Klopp tbh. Remember when Sturridge who has ligaments made of wet bog roll, just happened to randomly string a near full uninterrupted season together in 2013/14 just as he happened to be alongside Suarez at his peak and every single shot he was hitting was going in?

Sturridge was a strange one but when you look at that front four they had in 13/14 of Suarez Sturridge Sterling and Coutinho, they’re probably better players quality wise than the three they’ve got now (at least Sterling and Suarez have also kept it up post Liverpool)

At least with that team the defence looked rubbish on paper and so it showed. They also lost most of the big games that season. I could just about buy that season as a team wiho had somehow cobbled together a brilliant front four in a year when there was only one other good team in the league, and they got on a streaky run in the second half of the season. As soon as Suarez their genuine world class player went it fell apart. Fair enough.

What I can’t buy is three seasons of barely losing a game, barely even conceding a goal, every player in every position suddenly becoming world class, no injuries, no loss of form, no bad games, no fatigue, no red cards, hardly conceding penalties, there were more deflected goals against them in the Villa game than the whole of the 19/20 season.

There’s no rationale to explain that. The geniuses of Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho with some of the best players of all time couldn’t achieve that. Even prime Barcelona with Messi Iniesta Xavi in their primes lost at home to Hercules with Drenthe starring. Even Guardiola’s Man City lost at home to Crystal Palace in the season they just pipped Liverpool with players like Kompany Fernandinho Silva De Bruyne Aguero, literally the best in their history and the best in the premier league.

Yet there’s Liverpool on a three year unbeaten home record, who lost one game away at City (and even that was narrowly) between the start of the 18/19 season until the lockdown hit 3/4 through the 19/20 season. Not for me.

If they had a generational 1-11 similar to prime Barcelona or even United of 08 I’d say maybe that’s possible, maybe, but you’d still expect them to stumble a couple of times in that period, or at least be unlucky in some games, have players missing etc and need world class replacements in the squad. But to do all of this with a midfield that doesn’t score goals, no out and out striker, average players like Henderson Milner Lallana, players that hadn’t really shown any form before they came to Liverpool, and absolutely zero squad depth to speak of. Absolutely no chance it was done legally.

 

[Toast]

Sturridge was a strange one but when you look at that front four they had in 13/14 of Suarez Sturridge Sterling and Coutinho, they’re probably better players quality wise than the three they’ve got now (at least Sterling and Suarez have also kept it up post Liverpool)

At least with that team the defence looked rubbish on paper and so it showed. They also lost most of the big games that season. I could just about buy that season as a team wiho had somehow cobbled together a brilliant front four in a year when there was only one other good team in the league, and they got on a streaky run in the second half of the season. As soon as Suarez their genuine world class player went it fell apart. Fair enough.

What I can’t buy is three seasons of barely losing a game, barely even conceding a goal, every player in every position suddenly becoming world class, no injuries, no loss of form, no bad games, no fatigue, no red cards, hardly conceding penalties, there were more deflected goals against them in the Villa game than the whole of the 19/20 season.

There’s no rationale to explain that. The geniuses of Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho with some of the best players of all time couldn’t achieve that. Even prime Barcelona with Messi Iniesta Xavi in their primes lost at home to Hercules with Drenthe starring. Even Guardiola’s Man City lost at home to Crystal Palace in the season they just pipped Liverpool with players like Kompany Fernandinho Silva De Bruyne Aguero, literally the best in their history and the best in the premier league.

Yet there’s Liverpool on a three year unbeaten home record, who lost one game away at City (and even that was narrowly) between the start of the 18/19 season until the lockdown hit 3/4 through the 19/20 season. Not for me.

If they had a generational 1-11 similar to prime Barcelona or even United of 08 I’d say maybe that’s possible, maybe, but you’d still expect them to stumble a couple of times in that period, or at least be unlucky in some games, have players missing etc and need world class replacements in the squad. But to do all of this with a midfield that doesn’t score goals, no out and out striker, average players like Henderson Milner Lallana, players that hadn’t really shown any form before they came to Liverpool, and absolutely zero squad depth to speak of. Absolutely no chance it was done legally.

When they won the Champions league the other year, they finished second in the group, drew Porto in the quarters, Barca bottled a 3-0 lead in the Semis and played bloody Spurs in the Final.
I think it’s fair to say drugs were not needed to lift that trophy.
Last year the Prem was utter gash and they walked it and this season they have had enough significant injuries to not be able to walk it.

Milners fitness is odd, but apart from that, they have had the rub of the green big style and taken full advantage of it, christ, we couldn’t even beat their rezzies in the FA Cup FFS.

 

[Saint Domingo]

When they won the Champions league the other year, they finished second in the group, drew Porto in the quarters, Barca bottled a 3-0 lead in the Semis and played bloody Spurs in the Final.
I think it’s fair to say drugs were not needed to lift that trophy.
Last year the Prem was utter gash and they walked it and this season they have had enough significant injuries to not be able to walk it.

Milners fitness is odd, but apart from that, they have had the rub of the green big style and taken full advantage of it, christ, we couldn’t even beat their rezzies in the FA Cup FFS.

Did they? I remember a Barcelona team who had given all their star players a week off, turning up at Anfield against a Liverpool side without Salah and Firmino, who had just played Newcastle away a few days earlier, and getting absolutely run off the pitch by them. It was men v boys. Yes Barca undoubtedly had an off night but the difference between the teams was unbelievable. Unnatural. If anything Liverpool should have tired towards the end after the intensity of all the games they’d been playing but they just kept on pounding one of the best teams in Europe from pillar to post.

 

[Toast]

Did they? I remember a Barcelona team who had given all their star players a week off, turning up at Anfield against a Liverpool side without Salah and Firmino, who had just played Newcastle away a few days earlier, and getting absolutely run off the pitch by them. It was men v boys. Yes Barca undoubtedly had an off night but the difference between the teams was unbelievable. Unnatural. If anything Liverpool should have tired towards the end after the intensity of all the games they’d been playing but they just kept on pounding one of the best teams in Europe from pillar to post.

Barca thought they’d done enough, probs thought they’d get an away goal and when it started going tits up they bottled it, and the crowd does make a difference.
I know you’ve seen atmospheres at Goodison that intimidate opponents too, so don’t just fall for the press ‘magical European night’ at Anfield rubbish.
Fans deffo make a difference.

 

[number4.]

Did they? I remember a Barcelona team who had given all their star players a week off, turning up at Anfield against a Liverpool side without Salah and Firmino, who had just played Newcastle away a few days earlier, and getting absolutely run off the pitch by them. It was men v boys. Yes Barca undoubtedly had an off night but the difference between the teams was unbelievable. Unnatural. If anything Liverpool should have tired towards the end after the intensity of all the games they’d been playing but they just kept on pounding one of the best teams in Europe from pillar to post.

Yes, they absolutely bottled it. As they did they year before against Roma and the year before that against Juventus, not to mention the 8-2 hiding this year. Simple put, when it's going their way they are great, but any adversity and they collapse quicker than a deck of cards.

No spine, no leadership & a reliance on an ageing genius who cant push the tide on his own.

 

[brieverton]

Did they? I remember a Barcelona team who had given all their star players a week off, turning up at Anfield against a Liverpool side without Salah and Firmino, who had just played Newcastle away a few days earlier, and getting absolutely run off the pitch by them. It was men v boys. Yes Barca undoubtedly had an off night but the difference between the teams was unbelievable. Unnatural. If anything Liverpool should have tired towards the end after the intensity of all the games they’d been playing but they just kept on pounding one of the best teams in Europe from pillar to post.

I'd agree there. You make a thoroughly convincing argument in general, I must say. I'm sure something is going on, and I'm no sports scientist, they have probably succeeded in pushing the envelope of what is possible to the maximum extent, and on a level involving the implicit support and co-ordination from people within and outside the club.

Either that's permitted, or its not permitted and they have masked it successfully. I don't think there will be any earth-shattering revelations come out though. I imagine every team is watching all the others very hawkishly, particularly at the elite level, to gain an understanding of what makes certain sides perform in the footballing and physical sense, above others, and to emulate/better those feats.

Any significant deviation from the norm will of course raise questions, and there are clearly questions here, and I've seen them raised in general terms, by people with no axe to grind against LFC. But really its only hearsay until something substantive was to come to light.

The psychological advantage they have created for themselves playing at home is not to be underestimated either. The media, opposition, referees, the whole cohort all buy into that consciously and subconsciously. In the long term, that can't compensate for a competitive team but it gains them so much year on year.

In another post, I said they were a side that is far, far greater than the sum of their parts and that's where I'm at with them. Some of that is unsportingly and/or unfairly gained, but a large portion of it is not.

 

[duncs pigeon]

Barca thought they’d done enough, probs thought they’d get an away goal and when it started going tits up they bottled it, and the crowd does make a difference.
I know you’ve seen atmospheres at Goodison that intimidate opponents too, so don’t just fall for the press ‘magical European night’ at Anfield rubbish.
Fans deffo make a difference.

100% this. Was reading a few years ago how spectators/fans can improve performances by 15%. Think it was after the 2012 Olympics in London and how on 'Super Saturday' it inspired Farah, Jess Ennis and Rutherford to win gold. Anyway, back on topic, they're on PEDs

 

[PITA]

Trump supporters = deffo kopites.

Sorry, doing a disservice to Trump supporters there.

Correct with your first observation.

Banners, flags and red baseball caps. I rest your case.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

When they won the Champions league the other year, they finished second in the group, drew Porto in the quarters, Barca bottled a 3-0 lead in the Semis and played bloody Spurs in the Final.
I think it’s fair to say drugs were not needed to lift that trophy.
Last year the Prem was utter gash and they walked it and this season they have had enough significant injuries to not be able to walk it.

Milners fitness is odd, but apart from that, they have had the rub of the green big style and taken full advantage of it, christ, we couldn’t even beat their rezzies in the FA Cup FFS.

I can see doping increasing a player's fitness level, but can it actually take the quality football wise of said player's to another level? If we doped Tom Davies up would he go from being crap to good?

 

[Saint Domingo]

I can see doping increasing a player's fitness level, but can it actually take the quality football wise of said player's to another level? If we doped Tom Davies up would he go from being crap to good?

Imagine Davies in his best ever fitness and form, but we got him every single game. Yes it won’t make him brilliant but he’d be night and day above what he is now when he reaches that level once every 5 games if we’re lucky. The players Liverpool had were a lot better than Davies as well.

 

[number4.]

I can see doping increasing a player's fitness level, but can it actually take the quality football wise of said player's to another level? If we doped Tom Davies up would he go from being crap to good?

precisely - as I said earlier in the thread. why not play a goalkeeper and 10 Adama Traore'

 

[Tipp blue]

I can see doping increasing a player's fitness level, but can it actually take the quality football wise of said player's to another level? If we doped Tom Davies up would he go from being crap to good?

I made a similar argument earlier and got a good reply that made me change my thinking, it would make Davies a better player if our game plan involved constant running, after 60 minutes when opposition are out of gas and Tom is still going like it's the 5th minute he'd certainly look alot better.

 

[Toast]

I can see doping increasing a player's fitness level, but can it actually take the quality football wise of said player's to another level? If we doped Tom Davies up would he go from being crap to good?

Mentioned a lad I know who’s a sports scientist before, and he’s convinced Kante was juiced off his tits when Leicester won the league. He goes on about his stats and running speed and it was off the scale.

 

[YoboCopter]

Mentioned a lad I know who’s a sports scientist before, and he’s convinced Kante was juiced off his tits when Leicester won the league. He goes on about his stats and running speed and it was off the scale.

Maybe the players dont even know they are just get jabbed in there sleep