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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

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tsubaki said:
With all respect, what needs to be separated is the incident itself and the cover-up afterwards. The disaster was caused by one man making one decision to try and solve a problem outside the ground, though because he wasnt familiar with the ground, didnt identify what might the end result of that decision might be, didnt recognize how decrepit and fundamentally unsafe the ground as it then was, it is very questionable whether he should be held criminally responsible for the deaths that resulted from that decision.

Of course, the cover-up that followed immediately on from the disaster probably did take the form of some kind of criminal offence, and those responsible for that should face justice.
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I can't make out if you're actually defending his actions because of other mitigating circumstances; are you seriously saying that a man who has overall responsibility for the safety of every person is not criminally responsible for a decision he made?

Of course he his, its why hes in that position of power. This is exactly why the justice campaign is still going and will carry on: one of maggies top boys cant be held responsible for the deaths of working class people, it was all there fault, they stunk of ale, robbed from there own, pissed on the dead and fought with people coppers trying to help.

Get it?

And how many of the victims families got a payout from the government for traumatic stress etc?? But compare that to that coppers, a nice payout from the coffers; it was obviously more traumatic being a copper that day then a fan seeing your son, dad, brother, sister or friend slowly suffocate to death next to you
 
BirkenheadBlue said:
They had these in a week or so ago.
3007e37.jpg
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Gonna do a very Rawk-eqsue thing here:

lollollollollol
 
If it offers some help to THE FAMILIES of the 96, I think it's something to be supported (though my own thoughts are it is going a bit OTT now and, as others have said, it is inconsistent when you consider stuff like the Bradford fire and other disasters are not mentioned, which is disgusting on behalf of the FA and BBC).

I try to divorce it from Liverpool FC and their supporters if I can - they have no sovereignty over that as far as I'm concerned. None whatsoever. It should be divorced from that club as much as possible and in fact taken out of the football environment. It cheapens it's importance, because like Bradford and the other disasters they are national tragedies.

One thing the PL and FA should do is cancel Liverpool's games in the week of the disaster anniversary. It's unfair in a sporting sense for other teams playing Liverpool to have to play in that atmosphere. They don't play on the day, so it's not a precedent being created. That needs looking at.
 
davek said:
If it offers some help to THE FAMILIES of the 96, I think it's something to be supported (though my own thoughts are it is going a bit OTT now and, as others have said, it is inconsistent when you consider stuff like the Bradford fire and other disasters are not mentioned, which is disgusting on behalf of the FA and BBC).

I try to divorce it from Liverpool FC and their supporters if I can - they have no sovereignty over that as far as I'm concerned. None whatsoever. It should be divorced from that club as much as possible and in fact taken out of the football environment. It cheapens it's importance, because like Bradford and the other disasters they are national tragedies.

One thing the PL and FA should do is cancel Liverpool's games in the week of the disaster anniversary. It's unfair in a sporting sense for other teams playing Liverpool to have to play in that atmosphere. They don't play on the day, so it's not a precedent being created. That needs looking at.
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Tend to agree with most of that mate, from my own point of view, im starting to think all the empty gestures from footy in general and the FA in particular (wearing arm bands at semi's, minute silences at every ground etc) are actually starting or helping to keep the actual focus away from the actual people responsible, take for example a news clip will feature 2 minutes of showing the 'gesture' with a tacked on piece about the actual story, which is obtaining justice for the families that have been affected by those terrible events, lies and slander against their loved ones

The one thing i do hate though is the media bandwagon now trying to make out their whiter than white and behind the campaign, when they where hugely responsible for the cover up and slander, oh and anyone not from Liverpool and with no connection to the city besides buying a LFC top who makes out that Hillsborough was 'their tragedy' we all know the sort i mean, and frankly those people i despise
 

For me it's very easy to divorce the fight for justice for the 96 from Liverpool FC and their supporters - being mostly merseysiders let us not forget that the families of the 96 are not all nicely packaged together in 100% LFC supporting families, the victims were sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, mums, dads, grandparents ,cousins and friends of evertonians in equal measure to kopites. In fact we as a club should mark the hillsborough anniversaries in our own way independently regardless of what LFC or the FA do- working directly with the families and their many evertonian relatives - or how about the annual memorial service held at Anfield being held at Goodison for one year?
 
bluestevon said:
Tend to agree with most of that mate, from my own point of view, im starting to think all the empty gestures from footy in general and the FA in particular (wearing arm bands at semi's, minute silences at every ground etc) are actually starting or helping to keep the actual focus away from the actual people responsible, take for example a news clip will feature 2 minutes of showing the 'gesture' with a tacked on piece about the actual story, which is obtaining justice for the families that have been affected by those terrible events, lies and slander against their loved ones

The one thing i do hate though is the media bandwagon now trying to make out their whiter than white and behind the campaign, when they where hugely responsible for the cover up and slander, oh and anyone not from Liverpool and with no connection to the city besides buying a LFC top who makes out that Hillsborough was 'their tragedy' we all know the sort i mean, and frankly those people i despise
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There's a HUGE amount of hypocrisy, tokenism and brow beating on this subject. I can't abide the media at the best of times, but over this they've excelled themselves down the years. Either complete ignorance of it or complete OTT coverage of it when all that the affected families (the ONLY ones worth considering in all this) ever wanted was swift justice. Gregg Dyke and his 'sit in the VIP box and here's the FA Cup to put on display' - that just about tops it off. Tokenism from a fraud.

As said, it should be taken out of the public gaze once these families have justice, which hopefully they'll feel like they have soon. This has to become a private matter from that point on. Football is a cake and arse party and should never be - and can never be a fitting vehicle for their grief. It's not a badge, not a banner, it's someone's loved ones and they all should be able to grieve away from the bandwagon jumpers and media whores. I hate per se the use of football for events that are essentially private matters.
 
davek said:
There's a HUGE amount of hypocrisy, tokenism and brow beating on this subject. I can't abide the media at the best of times, but over this they've excelled themselves down the years. Either complete ignorance of it or complete OTT coverage of it when all that the affected families (the ONLY ones worth considering in all this) ever wanted was swift justice. Gregg Dyke and his 'sit in the VIP box and here's the FA Cup to put on display' - that just about tops it off. Tokenism from a fraud.

As said, it should be taken out of the public gaze once these families have justice, which hopefully they'll feel like they have soon. This has to become a private matter from that point on. Football is a cake and arse party and should never be - and can never be a fitting vehicle for their grief. It's not a badge, not a banner, it's someone's loved ones and they all should be able to grieve away from the bandwagon jumpers and media whores. I hate per se the use of football for events that are essentially private matters.
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One of your better posts over the years on here mate that
 
davek is pound for pound the best poster on here. He's time served too, he's been at the top of his game for years.

People forget but there was once a time when davek didn't have it easy on here. Even I was on his case. Did it phase him? No way. He ploughed on through and beat us all. I even fume at the board more than him from time to time now.

That's how he rolls, get with the winning side before its too late.
 
chicoazul said:
davek is pound for pound the best poster on here. He's time served too, he's been at the top of his game for years.

People forget but there was once a time when davek didn't have it easy on here. Even I was on his case. Did it phase him? No way. He ploughed on through and beat us all. I even fume at the board more than him from time to time now.

That's how he rolls, get with the winning side before its too late.
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This ^^^^^
 

nsno-chris said:
I can't make out if you're actually defending his actions because of other mitigating circumstances; are you seriously saying that a man who has overall responsibility for the safety of every person is not criminally responsible for a decision he made?

Of course he his, its why hes in that position of power. This is exactly why the justice campaign is still going and will carry on: one of maggies top boys cant be held responsible for the deaths of working class people, it was all there fault, they stunk of ale, robbed from there own, pissed on the dead and fought with people coppers trying to help.

Get it?
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No, what I am saying is that to hold someone to a manslaughter charge for that decision is to probably set the bar for manslaughter too low. Duckenfield made that decision, and he should be accountable for it, but (for example) he didnt make the decision to hold the game in a stadium which was known to not have had a safety certificate for eight years and which had repeated previous for crushes where serious injury was caused.
 
Norman Catlin – played for Southampton (1935–1937). He lost his life in the controversial sinking of HMS Gloucester off the coast of Crete in May 1941.[1]
Jo Coen - played for Luton Town (1934–1939). Died on 15 October 1941, in a training accident while serving with the Royal Air Force.[2]
Tom Cooper - played for Port Vale (1924–1926), Derby County (1926–1934) and Liverpool (1934–1940), as well as 15 appearances for England. Died serving the Royal Military Police in England on 25 June 1940 after his motorcycle struck a lorry.[3]
Haydn Dackins - played for Swansea Town (1934–1935) and Port Vale (1935–1936). He was killed in action on 2 August 1943, serving in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.[4]
Bobby Daniel – played for Arsenal. Served in the RAF, disappeared in action on a bombing raid over Berlin on 23 December 1943.[2]
Alan Fowler – played for Swindon Town. Killed in action with the Dorsetshire Regiment shortly after D-day on 10 July 1944.[2]
Harry Goslin – played for Bolton Wanderers (1930–1939). Served with the Bolton Artillery, mortally wounded in action in Italy and died 18 December 1943.[2]
Sid Gueran – played for Southampton (1936–1938). He was killed in action 18 September 1944 in the Battle of Arnhem.[5]
Sam Jennings - played for several clubs, including Reading (1921–1924), Brighton & Hove Albion (1925–1928) and Port Vale (1929–1931), and was manager at Rochdale (1937–1938). Died in battle on 26 August 1944, at the age of 45.[6]
Leslie Lack – played for Arsenal. Served in the RAF, killed by friendly fire while returning from a mission in his Spitfire.[2]
Herbie Roberts – played for Arsenal (1926–1937). He died of erysipelas on 17 June 1944, while on active duty with the Royal Fusiliers.[2]
Charlie Sillett – played for Southampton (1931–1938). He was killed in a U-boat attack on an allied convoy while serving with the Royal Navy in 1945.[7]

When does it end........who decides who should be remembered......WW1 footballers.........Bradford supporters.......Rangers.......if we must have gestures to remember deaths within football at least make it fully inclusive.......
 
peteblue said:
Norman Catlin – played for Southampton (1935–1937). He lost his life in the controversial sinking of HMS Gloucester off the coast of Crete in May 1941.[1]
Jo Coen - played for Luton Town (1934–1939). Died on 15 October 1941, in a training accident while serving with the Royal Air Force.[2]
Tom Cooper - played for Port Vale (1924–1926), Derby County (1926–1934) and Liverpool (1934–1940), as well as 15 appearances for England. Died serving the Royal Military Police in England on 25 June 1940 after his motorcycle struck a lorry.[3]
Haydn Dackins - played for Swansea Town (1934–1935) and Port Vale (1935–1936). He was killed in action on 2 August 1943, serving in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.[4]
Bobby Daniel – played for Arsenal. Served in the RAF, disappeared in action on a bombing raid over Berlin on 23 December 1943.[2]
Alan Fowler – played for Swindon Town. Killed in action with the Dorsetshire Regiment shortly after D-day on 10 July 1944.[2]
Harry Goslin – played for Bolton Wanderers (1930–1939). Served with the Bolton Artillery, mortally wounded in action in Italy and died 18 December 1943.[2]
Sid Gueran – played for Southampton (1936–1938). He was killed in action 18 September 1944 in the Battle of Arnhem.[5]
Sam Jennings - played for several clubs, including Reading (1921–1924), Brighton & Hove Albion (1925–1928) and Port Vale (1929–1931), and was manager at Rochdale (1937–1938). Died in battle on 26 August 1944, at the age of 45.[6]
Leslie Lack – played for Arsenal. Served in the RAF, killed by friendly fire while returning from a mission in his Spitfire.[2]
Herbie Roberts – played for Arsenal (1926–1937). He died of erysipelas on 17 June 1944, while on active duty with the Royal Fusiliers.[2]
Charlie Sillett – played for Southampton (1931–1938). He was killed in a U-boat attack on an allied convoy while serving with the Royal Navy in 1945.[7]

When does it end........who decides who should be remembered......WW1 footballers.........Bradford supporters.......Rangers.......if we must have gestures to remember deaths within football at least make it fully inclusive.......
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lest we forget - not just these, but everyone who sacrificed their life for our freedom
 

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