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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

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Only got to see that bell twisting the knife in by dramatically shaking his head when Torres was subbed vs Birmingham... playing to the gantries to get Benitez sacked

Gerrard was an idiot for all that. Benitez indulged him no end although he really didn't have to. After seeing how slefish and undisciplined Gerrard was in centre mid over the course of a season Benitez paired Alonso and Mascherano together virtually allowing Gerrard to do whatever he wanted behind Torres, no responsibility whatsoever but all the glory. He then demanded a bit of a better goal return fromt hat position so moved Gerrard to the right where surprise surprise he had his most fruitful season. Gerrard being Gerrard though was not happy not being the main man so moped around until he was back in his favoured position and a goalscorer like Kuyt was on the graveyard shift. Even in that Birmingham game Torres was unfit and Ngog came on and looked dangerous. But that has always been Gerrard, ego over the good of the team. Wants to be seen surrounded by what he would call his peers like Suarez and Torres regardless of what form they're in and is happy to openly disrespect the rest of his teammates because he feels he is untouchable. The irony is its probably Gerrard who has held Liverpool back from winning the league. Not just with his slip, but if Benitez had been given full reign and full control he could well have done it with the midfield he had back then. Had another striker partnered Torres in 08/09 perhaps they would have won it. Instead it always had to be Gerrard and it always had to be the style that suited him, the style that every Liverpool manager has had to implement to accomodate Gerrard and win matches: every man back in defense, high pressure, long balls up, Gerrard can either hit the quarter back pass or get onto the knock down to lash in. Rodgers wanted tiki taka, Gerrard binned it off for kick and rush, Hodgson wanted 4-4-2 Gerrard sabotaged that by just not turning up to any match Hodgson managed, Rafael wanted to control games with possession similar to a Mourinho style, but Gerrard was too interested in playing Roy of the Rovers, spraying hollywood balls and orchestrating the team around his wanting to hit long rangers from the edge of the box. Yes it has been succesfull at times but considering they've had two of the world's best midfielders (Alonso and Mascherano) and two of the world's top strikers (Torres and Suarez in their peaks) plus the huge amount of money they've spent, they really should have won a lot more including league titles. A roll of the dice the other way on penalty shoot outs and Liverpool would be looking at a massive trophy drought. Don't get me started on England, to think we retired Scholes and under utilised Lampard just to accomodate Stevie Me is sickening. he was totally found at international level but in true Gerrard style threw a few managers and team mates under the bus to come out scot free. At the international level he had absolutely no idea how to operate in a world class midfield, the game would pass him by embarassingly and we'd resort to going long to Crouch or Carrol. Surprise surprise Cappello moved him to left mid - another top manager seeing his flaws, but Stevie Me's old mate the English media soon hounded Cappelo out of that one and Gerrard was rightly instated as Captain for two of England's most miserable world cup campaigns (none of it Gerrard's fault of course)it was the location of the training ground, the suits they wore to fly over, Cappelo's training regime, Hodgson's formations. nothing to do with the fact we couldn't put a ass together and got dominated in midfield eveyr match because we had an impotent showboater strolling around. One of the most overrated players who built a career on having a good swinging shot and arriving in the right places. Lampard won more than him, scored more goals than him, scored in just as many big games as he did, made just as many trophy saving goals, did more with England, and proved he could complement not inhibit other top class players. Yet one is adored by the RS media as probably the greatest English player of all time, no, in the world possibly, and the other is just seen as a good servant, a good premier league player, who didn't do much but score goals. How Gerrard has managed to skate by all his career I'll never know.
 

Spot on that. Gerrard has been a disruptive influence throughout his career. That's counter-intuitive, but it's true for the reasons you underline. Benitez got that CL win behind him early on at Anfield and then had the stature at LFC to control Gerrrard without fear of a backlash being orchestrated. That, competitively speaking, was their best spell since the 80s: realistically fighting for the CL and putting in a challenge (until Easter anyway) to a rampant United in the PL. After the strongman left, Gerrard just took control again and played wherever the **** he liked.

Yes absolutely. Rodgers basically fluked it last season. A culmination of lots of things came together at once. United under Moyes. City with lots of injuries. Mourinho back settling in. Lots of dodgy referees decisions. A player with a Cantonaesque season of form.

He was the equivalent of a drunken 19 year old in a casino throwing money on the roulette wheel and it kept hitting his numbers. What's funny is he seems to have translated this devil may care recklessness into a "philosophy".

Under Benitez it was far more calculated and sustainable. Within that precision Gerrard was a bit of a liability, who paid him back by trying to get him sacked.


Within that successful team Gerrards role was reduced to a box to box right midfielder. Had Benitez had his own way and not been pressured from the neandarthals, I do question whether Gerrard would have been in the team at all.
 
Yes. Didn't the same thing happen against Chelsea in a European match too? Gerrard no doubt seizing the chance to get the problem out the door. I remember in that cup match two season's ago (I think against Oldham) at a time Gerrard was being asked to play second fiddle to Allen in midfield and work a short passing game, Liverpool fell behind and the camera's cut to the bench where Gerrard and Carragher were shaking their heads and giving daggers to Rodgers standing on the line in front of them.

He learned his tricks at the foot of King Snide himself: Dalglish. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at how manipulative he's been.

The thing is, unlike most other clubs that sort of behaviour is not only tolerated but celebrated. They write the present with all the delusional and falsification of how a hack re-writes history. It leads to the belief that players aren't just being a shitty when they do, but have had some sort of divine intervention to lead the cult towards the prophecy.
Lots of clubs tolerate such behaviour. Few embellish it and celebrate it like they do though. Your Ferdinand's of this world did the same thing to Moyes last season. You watch Gary Neville's reaction on Monday Night football. He's ashamed and angry his club has behaved that way. That sort of behaviour is par for the course for slippy.
 
Gerrard was an idiot for all that. Benitez indulged him no end although he really didn't have to. After seeing how slefish and undisciplined Gerrard was in centre mid over the course of a season Benitez paired Alonso and Mascherano together virtually allowing Gerrard to do whatever he wanted behind Torres, no responsibility whatsoever but all the glory. He then demanded a bit of a better goal return fromt hat position so moved Gerrard to the right where surprise surprise he had his most fruitful season. Gerrard being Gerrard though was not happy not being the main man so moped around until he was back in his favoured position and a goalscorer like Kuyt was on the graveyard shift. Even in that Birmingham game Torres was unfit and Ngog came on and looked dangerous. But that has always been Gerrard, ego over the good of the team. Wants to be seen surrounded by what he would call his peers like Suarez and Torres regardless of what form they're in and is happy to openly disrespect the rest of his teammates because he feels he is untouchable. The irony is its probably Gerrard who has held Liverpool back from winning the league. Not just with his slip, but if Benitez had been given full reign and full control he could well have done it with the midfield he had back then. Had another striker partnered Torres in 08/09 perhaps they would have won it. Instead it always had to be Gerrard and it always had to be the style that suited him, the style that every Liverpool manager has had to implement to accomodate Gerrard and win matches: every man back in defense, high pressure, long balls up, Gerrard can either hit the quarter back pass or get onto the knock down to lash in. Rodgers wanted tiki taka, Gerrard binned it off for kick and rush, Hodgson wanted 4-4-2 Gerrard sabotaged that by just not turning up to any match Hodgson managed, Rafael wanted to control games with possession similar to a Mourinho style, but Gerrard was too interested in playing Roy of the Rovers, spraying hollywood balls and orchestrating the team around his wanting to hit long rangers from the edge of the box. Yes it has been succesfull at times but considering they've had two of the world's best midfielders (Alonso and Mascherano) and two of the world's top strikers (Torres and Suarez in their peaks) plus the huge amount of money they've spent, they really should have won a lot more including league titles. A roll of the dice the other way on penalty shoot outs and Liverpool would be looking at a massive trophy drought. Don't get me started on England, to think we retired Scholes and under utilised Lampard just to accomodate Stevie Me is sickening. he was totally found at international level but in true Gerrard style threw a few managers and team mates under the bus to come out scot free. At the international level he had absolutely no idea how to operate in a world class midfield, the game would pass him by embarassingly and we'd resort to going long to Crouch or Carrol. Surprise surprise Cappello moved him to left mid - another top manager seeing his flaws, but Stevie Me's old mate the English media soon hounded Cappelo out of that one and Gerrard was rightly instated as Captain for two of England's most miserable world cup campaigns (none of it Gerrard's fault of course)it was the location of the training ground, the suits they wore to fly over, Cappelo's training regime, Hodgson's formations. nothing to do with the fact we couldn't put a ass together and got dominated in midfield eveyr match because we had an impotent showboater strolling around. One of the most overrated players who built a career on having a good swinging shot and arriving in the right places. Lampard won more than him, scored more goals than him, scored in just as many big games as he did, made just as many trophy saving goals, did more with England, and proved he could complement not inhibit other top class players. Yet one is adored by the RS media as probably the greatest English player of all time, no, in the world possibly, and the other is just seen as a good servant, a good premier league player, who didn't do much but score goals. How Gerrard has managed to skate by all his career I'll never know.

This is a fantastic post mate! I agree with you that Benitez wanted to use Gerrard as a bit of a utility man, away from any responsibility. The dialectic though meant he was always under pressure to accommodate him. As the relationship deteriorated with the owners and he had to manipulate the fans more this is when he started to place Gerrard more centrally, and the results of the team suffered.

Essentially I think Benitez in his early days got as close to anyone Liverpool manager of 1) turning them into a top team and 2) minimising the impact of Gerrard on the team. The two are linked.

Bear in mind Liverpool also had Torres, one of the best strikers in the world at that time playing for them. They should have got a top quality number 10 to play behind him. He tried this with Robbie Keane, but again Slippy G wouldn’t have it and that project was binned off.

It is interesting to compare Gerrard to Rooney. Rooney is a man of far more natural talent than Gerrard, but a good comparison. He has played midfield most of this season, yet you have hardly heard a peep out of him.

How has he survived so long? Well I suppose a couple of factors. Unforutnately one which @davek has touched upon is the inherent stupidity of English fans. We value a Roy of the Rovers type player. Unfortunately they often specialise in the very things you don’t require if you put together a good team (namely running around, shooting from long distances and tackling). If you build a team that makes short passes, doesn’t lose the ball and looks to craft clear openings such players are not needed.

The other is fans of Liverpool FC have an overarching influence and in some ways display an organisational prowess that is beyond most supporters. They have basically bullied many managers/boards into accommodating Gerrard who is seen as a walking representation of them (again no need to point out the hypocrisy of him wanting to leave etc).

Gerrard like a Dalglish is streetwise enough to know how to manipulate the mob for his own ends. Unlike most supporters they will actually chase you out of town if they don’t like you. Bullets in the post, turning up at your house, mass protests in the street etc. All this showing off has led to though is them sacking managers who might have won them something and ending up with frauds.
 
This is a fantastic post mate! I agree with you that Benitez wanted to use Gerrard as a bit of a utility man, away from any responsibility. The dialectic though meant he was always under pressure to accommodate him. As the relationship deteriorated with the owners and he had to manipulate the fans more this is when he started to place Gerrard more centrally, and the results of the team suffered.

Essentially I think Benitez in his early days got as close to anyone Liverpool manager of 1) turning them into a top team and 2) minimising the impact of Gerrard on the team. The two are linked.

Bear in mind Liverpool also had Torres, one of the best strikers in the world at that time playing for them. They should have got a top quality number 10 to play behind him. He tried this with Robbie Keane, but again Slippy G wouldn’t have it and that project was binned off.

It is interesting to compare Gerrard to Rooney. Rooney is a man of far more natural talent than Gerrard, but a good comparison. He has played midfield most of this season, yet you have hardly heard a peep out of him.

How has he survived so long? Well I suppose a couple of factors. Unforutnately one which @davek has touched upon is the inherent stupidity of English fans. We value a Roy of the Rovers type player. Unfortunately they often specialise in the very things you don’t require if you put together a good team (namely running around, shooting from long distances and tackling). If you build a team that makes short passes, doesn’t lose the ball and looks to craft clear openings such players are not needed.

The other is fans of Liverpool FC have an overarching influence and in some ways display an organisational prowess that is beyond most supporters. They have basically bullied many managers/boards into accommodating Gerrard who is seen as a walking representation of them (again no need to point out the hypocrisy of him wanting to leave etc).

Gerrard like a Dalglish is streetwise enough to know how to manipulate the mob for his own ends. Unlike most supporters they will actually chase you out of town if they don’t like you. Bullets in the post, turning up at your house, mass protests in the street etc. All this showing off has led to though is them sacking managers who might have won them something and ending up with frauds.

I agree, they're like no other fans. It gets mentioned all the time, but I don't think they realise what a weird cult they are. They are not "football fans", they are Liverpool FC fanatics, and nothing else. They hate everyone and everything in football that is a barrier between them and success. How can you call that a "football fan"?
 

I agree, they're like no other fans. It gets mentioned all the time, but I don't think they realise what a weird cult they are. They are not "football fans", they are Liverpool FC fanatics, and nothing else. They hate everyone and everything in football that is a barrier between them and success. How can you call that a "football fan"?

Well yes. They are the classic rebels without a cause though. There are a million and one things wrong with the world which they should be organising against, yet they choose to spend this energy haranguing anyone within or outside of their club. There are even things within football that need challenging, like racism, but they don't even do that very effectively.

Yes there fans are passionate. They are certainly different to most other fans. I am sure they make their players feel welcome at first. But you have to play the game. The moment you veer off the straight and narrow of conventional wisdom (like Hodgson did) they show no skills of loyalty. It is little wonder all of these top players give them a swerve. Only a thoroughly delusional and vain individual would want to join them.
 
I have given the goals scored per season stats earlier in this thread mate. Sturridge has only managed to score 15+ league goals once in his career. Lukaku has managed to do that twice already and had an outside chance of doing it this season.

Sturridge will never regularly score more than around 13 league goals per season. He had 1 blip in his record and that was down to Suarez. Lukaku will regularly score 15+ goals a season and as he develops will score 20+ league goals a season. Sturridge has never and will never be of this quality.
If he played a full season (highly unlikely, I know) he would outscore Lukaku I believe.
 
Sturridge is currently a far superior player to Lukaku.

true, but why highlight it
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If he played a full season (highly unlikely, I know) he would outscore Lukaku I believe.

He 'might' outscore Lukaku, both players have the ability to create on their own but generally require (like most strikers) service. So, in theory it will massively depend on the midfield support that they will get, what kind of system they are played in, etc. It is certainly nowhere near as black and white as to who the better player is, Lukaku has 4 years on him so arguably he has the potential to be a lot better than Sturridge is now or will ever be but at this time I see them as like for like.

If they both played the same amount of games (minutes) in 4/5 seasons you will find that it will prob be nip and tuck in each season with one getting a few more goals than the other, in turn. If they both stayed in the same teams as they are and stayed at the same level they are now.
 

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