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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

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A post on Koeman from Rawk, feel free to respond, I will come back later.


Quote from: DonkeyWan on Yesterday at 12:35:24 PM
Lets have a potted history of Keoman as manager shall we? He takes over at Ajax in 2001. Lets not under value this, he did well to get a double in his first year. The second year wasn't so good, he does regain the title the following year, but by 2005 his team is struggling so he jumps before he is pushed.

He takes over at Benfica where, after some initial success, his team begin to struggle (notice a pattern here?) He does the sum of [Poor language removed] all and leaves at the end of the season for Dutch football once more.

Now, I should pause here for a moment and point something out. There are three big teams in Holland, Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord. If you were to compar them tot hree PL sides I would say Liverpool, Man United and Arsenal are the best fit (three storied clubs with a long history of success rather than newly monied flash in the pans froma historical perspective). Imagine if you will a manager of Liverpool who, after winning a trophy or two, left under a cloud only to come back the following year to manage United. Cos that's what Koeman did.

He comes back to manage PSV, takes over a successful team and then, after an initial burst, flags badly in the first season before recovering just enough to get ove rthe line...by goal difference. A single goal at that. In a league that PSV had won the two previous seasons by 10 points. It will not surprise you to hear that Koeman [Poor language removed] off the following year to a reasonably big side in Valencia...

... where he did, in fairness, win a cup, but left the team in 15th, did spectacularly [Poor language removed] in Europe and got sacked.

He now rushes back to Dutch football and takes over at AZ, themselves a pretty decent sized club, lets say the Spurs of the Dutch league, some past success but not a lot and not for a while. Here he starts spectacularly badly and gets fired.

From there he goes to Feyenoord. The last of the big three. Lets compare them to Arsenal as their rivalry isn't as intense as that of PSV and Ajax (who I would compare to Liverpool and United). He does nothing at Feyenoord and leaves after 3 seasons, a real nothing tenure.

He then washes up at the Southampton side, itself a success story but not operating at the highest level in the league. Two seasons later and he jumps ship to Everton. This is a strnage move by any measure.

So, what have we learned from Koeman's managerial history?

1] He doesn't stay long at any club. His longest stint was his first one at a club he was a legend as a player for.

2] After initial success his teams quickly deteriorate in quality.

3] He has no issue job hopping from rival to rival. Imagine if Brendan Rodgers came back from Celtic at the end of the season to manage United... and from there went to Arsenal. Imagine how much you would hate that as a fan.

4] Koeman does not build success, he inherits it. That's the biggest criticism for me. That is consistent throughout his managerial career.

5] As soons as the heat is applied he is off. Not one to ride out the slings and arrows of misfortune, Koeman is a manager quite happy to go if the going is good.

Now, apply what we know of Koeman to Everton's position. A team that needs stability, investment and a manager that can build a team in his own image and create a winning formula. That's the success Moyes brought the side. Theya re still effectively living off that. Does Koeman strike you as the right man for that job? Me either. He's not a young coach either, he is 53 and nothing in his career to date suggests he could, at this late stage, start buildinga side from scratch for the future."

There's a lot of sense in this post. However I do have to take issue with some bits of it. It clearly rankles with them that Koeman has been more successful than Klopp so they have to write war and peace style essays to try and divert from that fact.

Lets have some things right though, he's accused of only winning the Dutch League with the favourites. Yet he won it with 2 separate teams, so are they bot the favourites? Likewise the comparison to the Scottish League is amusing, if you look back at Dutch performance around 15 years ago in Europe and compared that to Scottish teams performance in Europe over the last 5 years you would see back then the Dutch league was light years away.

As for Klopp he won the league with Dortmund which was a good achievement. There does have to be an acknowledgment though that he did so at a time when Bayern were in a mess and once they got themselves sorted Klopps Dortmund got nowhere near them. Klopps final season saw them get finish half way up and he also has a relegation on his CV. Likewise Dortmund are not a small club in Germany, they are not as big as Bayern but by no means a minnow. Since Liverpool FC's last title win Dortmund have won the league on multiple occasions (prior to Klopps arrival) and also won the European Cup in 97. They are a football power house not the minnows they are portrayed. As indicated above, when he was at a minnow club (Mainz) he was relegated. What it shows though is like Koeman Klopp has had ups and downs. Such nuance is lost on most kopites though, who will only see good in their own manager and bad in others.

I also found the Feyenoord comment spurious and indicative of someone who hasn't done their research properly. Koeman is widely revered and appreciated for the job he did. The comment "He does nothing at Feyenoord and leaves after 3 seasons, a real nothing tenure" is ignorant in the extreme. He took a side that was languishing in the bottom half, in the brink of going bust, sold their best players, brought through younger players to balance the books and led them to 2nd place in the league level of points with Ajax. It's for good reason he is held in high esteem and is probably his best work managerially.

He makes a lot about managing the Dutch big 3 as if it's an insult. Koeman is widely liked and more importantly respected at all 3 clubs. How many figures in football would have that same level of respect amongst Everton, Liverpool and say Manchester United supporters? This isn't an insult to him but a testament to the job he did at all 3.

One of the points I agree with is that he hasn't remained at a club for a long time. Particularly early in his career he has a habit of falling out with players quickly. Post AZ he has something of an epiphany and moderates his style somewhat and has become a better manager for it. I'm not sure how long he will stay at Everton, I hope a long time but I sense not. Ultimately in our case beggars can't be choosers and to have a manager of his calibre for 2-3 years will do us the world of good.

The only other notion of him walking into teams that were doing great is not true. He has never managed a club that won their league the previous season. Even at the biggest clubs he went too (PSV & Ajax) he has a net transfer loss as he had to sell more than he bought in. Many players such as Schneider, Stekelenberg, Van Der Vaart, Ibrahomovic were either brought through by him, signed by him or developed by him. At clubs like Feyenoord and to a lesser degree Southampton he came into chaotic situations of players being sold all over the shop and still improved the team. In all honesty despite the gobbing off over the internet it's clear the author hasn't done even the most basic of research to back up his assertions.

As a final aside, when it comes to the top coaching jobs, be it Barcalona or Real Madrid I would happily imagine Koeman will manage them. I also think Koeman will have a more illustrious medals cabinet when he retires than Klopp. It's a reasonable point saying what do Everton need currently and is he the right fit, being critical of Everton is reasonable enough and to be expected however the hatchet job on Koeman seems a bit ridiculous to me. I can't take away the two Bundesliga's Klopp won and he did a fantastic job winning them, the same credit should be given to Koeman for winning what he has won in the game. Trying to undermine that looks churlish and silly.

Anyway for the lurkers he had his moment, and his post was put on the wall to be discussed. Lets see how many of the rats are capable of responding in kind on their board without resorting to bitter insults (or in Solomon Grundy's case lying about Hillsborough).
 

A post on Koeman from Rawk, feel free to respond, I will come back later.


Quote from: DonkeyWan on Yesterday at 12:35:24 PM
Lets have a potted history of Keoman as manager shall we? He takes over at Ajax in 2001. Lets not under value this, he did well to get a double in his first year. The second year wasn't so good, he does regain the title the following year, but by 2005 his team is struggling so he jumps before he is pushed.

He takes over at Benfica where, after some initial success, his team begin to struggle (notice a pattern here?) He does the sum of [Poor language removed] all and leaves at the end of the season for Dutch football once more.

Now, I should pause here for a moment and point something out. There are three big teams in Holland, Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord. If you were to compar them tot hree PL sides I would say Liverpool, Man United and Arsenal are the best fit (three storied clubs with a long history of success rather than newly monied flash in the pans froma historical perspective). Imagine if you will a manager of Liverpool who, after winning a trophy or two, left under a cloud only to come back the following year to manage United. Cos that's what Koeman did.

He comes back to manage PSV, takes over a successful team and then, after an initial burst, flags badly in the first season before recovering just enough to get ove rthe line...by goal difference. A single goal at that. In a league that PSV had won the two previous seasons by 10 points. It will not surprise you to hear that Koeman [Poor language removed] off the following year to a reasonably big side in Valencia...

... where he did, in fairness, win a cup, but left the team in 15th, did spectacularly [Poor language removed] in Europe and got sacked.

He now rushes back to Dutch football and takes over at AZ, themselves a pretty decent sized club, lets say the Spurs of the Dutch league, some past success but not a lot and not for a while. Here he starts spectacularly badly and gets fired.

From there he goes to Feyenoord. The last of the big three. Lets compare them to Arsenal as their rivalry isn't as intense as that of PSV and Ajax (who I would compare to Liverpool and United). He does nothing at Feyenoord and leaves after 3 seasons, a real nothing tenure.

He then washes up at the Southampton side, itself a success story but not operating at the highest level in the league. Two seasons later and he jumps ship to Everton. This is a strnage move by any measure.

So, what have we learned from Koeman's managerial history?

1] He doesn't stay long at any club. His longest stint was his first one at a club he was a legend as a player for.

2] After initial success his teams quickly deteriorate in quality.

3] He has no issue job hopping from rival to rival. Imagine if Brendan Rodgers came back from Celtic at the end of the season to manage United... and from there went to Arsenal. Imagine how much you would hate that as a fan.

4] Koeman does not build success, he inherits it. That's the biggest criticism for me. That is consistent throughout his managerial career.

5] As soons as the heat is applied he is off. Not one to ride out the slings and arrows of misfortune, Koeman is a manager quite happy to go if the going is good.

Now, apply what we know of Koeman to Everton's position. A team that needs stability, investment and a manager that can build a team in his own image and create a winning formula. That's the success Moyes brought the side. Theya re still effectively living off that. Does Koeman strike you as the right man for that job? Me either. He's not a young coach either, he is 53 and nothing in his career to date suggests he could, at this late stage, start buildinga side from scratch for the future."

Written by some beaut from Devon whilst wearing his full Liverpool kit, a beaut who has never set foot in this city never mind that hole over the park. His wife is a fat mess while his kids wear green fluorescent sondico trabs and sporting everlast vests. Bet hes got something stupid printed on the back of all his RS kits the absolute mess.

I hope Koeman pipes that yellow toothed german rar down
 

Written by some beaut from Devon whilst wearing his full Liverpool kit, a beaut who has never set foot in this city never mind that hole over the park. His wife is a fat mess while his kids wear green fluorescent sondico trabs and sporting everlast vests. Bet hes got something stupid printed on the back of all his RS kits the absolute mess.

I hope Koeman pipes that yellow toothed german rar down

He thinks Ajax's rivalry with PSV is more intense than their rivalry with Feyenoord????!!!

Um ok.
 

Written by some beaut from Devon whilst wearing his full Liverpool kit, a beaut who has never set foot in this city never mind that hole over the park. His wife is a fat mess while his kids wear green fluorescent sondico trabs and sporting everlast vests. Bet hes got something stupid printed on the back of all his RS kits the absolute mess.

I hope Koeman pipes that yellow toothed german rar down

The OP has valid points, he does only stay for a few years, he wins trophies then leaves quickly before his reputation is tarnished.
From a EFC point of view I would welcome this, simply because he wins something here and then hands the reigns over.
One thing that stood out for me Is the part when the OP says something like a club based on tradition and not money being flashed. Funny thing is that whilst they are a major club full of history, its not exactly been done without money - something the cult refuse to acknowledge or admit, yet they put us down because we don't have the money to compete with them. Same thing as them to United, if Liverpool dared to threaten then I guarantee United would blow them out the water financially. But then again im just bitter for pointing this out.
 
Written by some beaut from Devon whilst wearing his full Liverpool kit, a beaut who has never set foot in this city never mind that hole over the park. His wife is a fat mess while his kids wear green fluorescent sondico trabs and sporting everlast vests. Bet hes got something stupid printed on the back of all his RS kits the absolute mess.


Sublime that.

If ever there was a nailed-on mental image of "De werld's best supporters", here it is.

Kenny Powers doesn't hold back, y'all.
 
My RS mates keep telling me it's "their year", I howl with laughter pointing out that they will finish 3rd at best, their pact with the devil has turned full circle and they are destined to fall at the last (spectacularly) from now on (see crystanbul, Slippy chelsea game, gerrards last game home to stoke, the mickey mouse cup final against city, it is all set up for the rest of the world to laugh at them.

If theuy had euro football, they would not even finish top 8, total bunch of bluffers, I LOVE IT!
 
The OP has valid points, he does only stay for a few years, he wins trophies then leaves quickly before his reputation is tarnished.
From a EFC point of view I would welcome this, simply because he wins something here and then hands the reigns over.
One thing that stood out for me Is the part when the OP says something like a club based on tradition and not money being flashed. Funny thing is that whilst they are a major club full of history, its not exactly been done without money - something the cult refuse to acknowledge or admit, yet they put us down because we don't have the money to compete with them. Same thing as them to United, if Liverpool dared to threaten then I guarantee United would blow them out the water financially. But then again im just bitter for pointing this out.

Arsed about what some mutant from Devon thinks of our Ron, deluded bunch of tits. They are under the belief that they don't spend money, the amount of they've wasted could have wiped out world hunger.

The OP is kopite mutant
 

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