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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

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catcherintherye said:
Just another retort to the loveable reds over on Rawk. There seems to be some assumption (or so there perspective goes) that I’m making out Moshiri is much wealthier than John Henry and was going to buy us a ground. I can cover the second point very easily that I’ve never said this and would think it would be a ludicrous waste of liquidity for him to do so.

As for the first point, on paper at least it’s reasonable to compare the two. In Forbes Henry is ranked at 1 billion and Moshiri at 2.5 billion recently (an increase of close to 150% in 18 months) but baseline figures as comparable. To reduce down the impact of Moshiri to simple figures though is to rather miss the wider perspective about the impact of his investment.

The raw figures do show they are not “about the same” at all by the way, they show Moshiri has well over double the wealth and hundreds of millions more. However I will let that slip. What is more significant is that it is always a challenge to estimate the values of the super rich. They are astute at hiding money. The company who leads the way in charting values Forbes is an American based company, who have always said they have poor intelligence on Russia (for obvious reasons) and therefore it’s hard to make an accurate judgement. They have subsequently said that they have therefore “cautiously estimated” Moshiri’s wealth based on parts of his profile they are aware of. Their knowledge of the US market is understandably much stronger. The accurate figure would be that a cautious estimate of part of Moshiri’s empire is well over double what Henry is said to be worth.

Moving slightly away from this, what is significant about Moshiri is how he is overhauling the method of how Everton operate off the pitch. We are already seeing Everton trebling or quadrupling existent relationships. In some cases it’s literally immeasurable the impact he is having as we are getting sponsorship for areas that had no revenue previously. We are starting from a low base, well behind Liverpool, but such progression is likely to be significant for Everton.

What some Everton fans believe is that Usmanov is lurking behind the scenes. This is not some wild conspiracy theory. Usmanov regularly sits with Moshiri at games. He has sponsored Everton to a significantly higher value than we had previously. They have both also said “we always do business together” shortly after the sponsorship deal.
Alongside that you also have a tradition and history of such an approach across Post Soviet Russia. It’s not uncommon for a wealthy owner to be a front guy for the serious powerhouse who prefers to stay anonymous (for varied reasons). None of this means it’s certain to be happening, but there is credible evidence to fuel the theories. Suffice to say any involvement from Usmanov would be a game changer over the next 10 years.

I actually agree with some of the sentiment that Moshiri is also trying to make Everton self sufficient, but disagree it’s a bad thing. Throwing money at a project and making a project viable in it’s own right are not mutually exclusive. Even now, if Roman left Chelsea they would find it very difficult (although they are better suerved than 5 years ago). It’s likely City would be bust quite quickly without their financial support. I think Moshiri is trying to get Everton to the top, will (and has) invested significant amounts of his own funds as a shortcutting exercise but also knows we need to overhaul our method of generating revenue for it to be longer term.

As regards the stadium, no he hasn’t paid for it. Yes this might make him a fraud. However no owner has ever paid for a stadium. Your own owners are making you pay for your stand and creaming profit off you for the interest on the loan they’ve given you. If you accept the premise Moshiri is a fraud for not paying, you would also have to say every owner in the history of football in every country is also a fraud.

A more realistic look at the stadium would say that Moshiri is adept at prioritizing his own liquidity and that of the club. He openly said at Arsenal he rejected the short term repayments and preferred long term repayable debt solution. Debt isn’t an issue if it’s manageable, sustainable and doesn’t impact in other areas. The stadium deal he has done for us, over 40 years paying back anywhere between 14-18 million pounds per year over a 40 year period should mean we avoid the fate of Arsenal who are still to fully recover from the fiscal reductions that were withdrawn in the aftermath of their stadium. I imagine naming rights alone will come close to meeting our figure to be paid off.

I have no issue with a serious debate about ownership or a critical look at Moshiri. However straw manning people’s positions, or making out anyone is suggesting Moshiri is going to give us the entirety of his 2.5 billion pound fortune is conducting a debate in poor taste. Through a mixture of his expertise, cash, liquidity and connections Moshiri is moving Everton forward off the pitch. I do think the ridiculous comments across the spectrum of LFC supporting media outlets is indicative of a fear that they can see this is happening.
Click to expand...

They are the embodiment of that meme of the frog on fire in the kitchen pretending nothing is happening. They've fallen from 2CL finals in 3 years to 1 trophy in the last decade and celebrating as though they've won the World Cup if they get top 4 (oh no wait they haven't got it yet they've just prematurely awarded it to themselves as usual). In the same time period we've gone from negative net spends, sell to loan transfer policy, begging Tesco for a stadium, to being debt free, breaking our transfer record numerous times in nearly every position, and agreeing land purchase on a waterfront stadium.

Yet despite this all you get from them is 'ha ha Moshiri is a fraud lad, Klopp's a genius', or some other brain dead variant on this. They're going nowhere unless they have a substantial change of circumstances, any impartial observer can see that. They're no longer competing for top players and their recruitment on the whole is woeful. Their entire 'success' (maybe finishing top 4), hangs on the fortune of Klopp and Coutinho. If either went that frail pack of cards would fall down. They're one bad transfer or one bad managerial appointment away from having a horrific season.
 
catcherintherye said:
Just another retort to the loveable reds over on Rawk. There seems to be some assumption (or so there perspective goes) that I’m making out Moshiri is much wealthier than John Henry and was going to buy us a ground. I can cover the second point very easily that I’ve never said this and would think it would be a ludicrous waste of liquidity for him to do so.

As for the first point, on paper at least it’s reasonable to compare the two. In Forbes Henry is ranked at 1 billion and Moshiri at 2.5 billion recently (an increase of close to 150% in 18 months) but baseline figures as comparable. To reduce down the impact of Moshiri to simple figures though is to rather miss the wider perspective about the impact of his investment.

The raw figures do show they are not “about the same” at all by the way, they show Moshiri has well over double the wealth and hundreds of millions more. However I will let that slip. What is more significant is that it is always a challenge to estimate the values of the super rich. They are astute at hiding money. The company who leads the way in charting values Forbes is an American based company, who have always said they have poor intelligence on Russia (for obvious reasons) and therefore it’s hard to make an accurate judgement. They have subsequently said that they have therefore “cautiously estimated” Moshiri’s wealth based on parts of his profile they are aware of. Their knowledge of the US market is understandably much stronger. The accurate figure would be that a cautious estimate of part of Moshiri’s empire is well over double what Henry is said to be worth.

Moving slightly away from this, what is significant about Moshiri is how he is overhauling the method of how Everton operate off the pitch. We are already seeing Everton trebling or quadrupling existent relationships. In some cases it’s literally immeasurable the impact he is having as we are getting sponsorship for areas that had no revenue previously. We are starting from a low base, well behind Liverpool, but such progression is likely to be significant for Everton.

What some Everton fans believe is that Usmanov is lurking behind the scenes. This is not some wild conspiracy theory. Usmanov regularly sits with Moshiri at games. He has sponsored Everton to a significantly higher value than we had previously. They have both also said “we always do business together” shortly after the sponsorship deal.
Alongside that you also have a tradition and history of such an approach across Post Soviet Russia. It’s not uncommon for a wealthy owner to be a front guy for the serious powerhouse who prefers to stay anonymous (for varied reasons). None of this means it’s certain to be happening, but there is credible evidence to fuel the theories. Suffice to say any involvement from Usmanov would be a game changer over the next 10 years.



I actually agree with some of the sentiment that Moshiri is also trying to make Everton self sufficient, but disagree it’s a bad thing. Throwing money at a project and making a project viable in it’s own right are not mutually exclusive. Even now, if Roman left Chelsea they would find it very difficult (although they are better suerved than 5 years ago). It’s likely City would be bust quite quickly without their financial support. I think Moshiri is trying to get Everton to the top, will (and has) invested significant amounts of his own funds as a shortcutting exercise but also knows we need to overhaul our method of generating revenue for it to be longer term.

As regards the stadium, no he hasn’t paid for it. Yes this might make him a fraud. However no owner has ever paid for a stadium. Your own owners are making you pay for your stand and creaming profit off you for the interest on the loan they’ve given you. If you accept the premise Moshiri is a fraud for not paying, you would also have to say every owner in the history of football in every country is also a fraud.

A more realistic look at the stadium would say that Moshiri is adept at prioritizing his own liquidity and that of the club. He openly said at Arsenal he rejected the short term repayments and preferred long term repayable debt solution. Debt isn’t an issue if it’s manageable, sustainable and doesn’t impact in other areas. The stadium deal he has done for us, over 40 years paying back anywhere between 14-18 million pounds per year over a 40 year period should mean we avoid the fate of Arsenal who are still to fully recover from the fiscal reductions that were withdrawn in the aftermath of their stadium. I imagine naming rights alone will come close to meeting our figure to be paid off.

I have no issue with a serious debate about ownership or a critical look at Moshiri. However straw manning people’s positions, or making out anyone is suggesting Moshiri is going to give us the entirety of his 2.5 billion pound fortune is conducting a debate in poor taste. Through a mixture of his expertise, cash, liquidity and connections Moshiri is moving Everton forward off the pitch. I do think the ridiculous comments across the spectrum of LFC supporting media outlets is indicative of a fear that they can see this is happening.
Click to expand...


HAHAHAH love your rants
 

davek said:
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...s/exclusive-liverpool-fc-board-split-12886637

Interesting story concerning the FSG takeover, one that will have some bit for their supporters given how the mood seems to be swinging against FSG.

If they dont spend big in the summer I can see FSG facing a rebellion.
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Wouldn't want a rebelllion right.

Was big news late last year here in Hong Kong that the chinese government wealth fund wanted to buy them,IIRC that was the 3rd attempt trying to buy them,FSG offered them a minority stake,they wanted to buy the club outright and that's why it didn't happen.

If FSG do sell they willbr right at the front of the queue,rather they keep FSG instead of a man city type wealth fund propping them up with a bottomless pit of cash.
 
HongKongToffee said:
Wouldn't want a rebelllion right.

Was big news late last year here in Hong Kong that the chinese government wealth fund wanted to buy them,IIRC that was the 3rd attempt trying to buy them,FSG offered them a minority stake,they wanted to buy the club outright and that's why it didn't happen.

If FSG do sell they willbr right at the front of the queue,rather they keep FSG instead of a man city type wealth fund propping them up with a bottomless pit of cash.
Click to expand...
FSG buying them was as big a disaster as H&G buying them.
 
davek said:
FSG buying them was as big a disaster as H&G buying them.
Click to expand...
Depends from which perspective you view it. For most Liverpool fans I'd say it is a disaster while it's certainly more relaxing for us as Evertonians.

However, like Kroneke has at Arsenal, FSG are slowly adapting the club so that it balances self-reliance with the ability to challenge to a point.

Without requiring regular investment from the owners they've got increased attendance, increased commercial revenue and a more frugal squad.

That should sustain their position towards the higher echelons of the league and provide European football which will provide them suitable income.

However, without extra money spent then I doubt they'll be able to challenge with the big spenders. But FSG will get their return so you know...
 
PhilM said:
Depends from which perspective you view it. For most Liverpool fans I'd say it is a disaster while it's certainly more relaxing for us as Evertonians.

However, like Kroneke has at Arsenal, FSG are slowly adapting the club so that it balances self-reliance with the ability to challenge to a point.

Without requiring regular investment from the owners they've got increased attendance, increased commercial revenue and a more frugal squad.

That should sustain their position towards the higher echelons of the league and provide European football which will provide them suitable income.

However, without extra money spent then I doubt they'll be able to challenge with the big spenders. But FSG will get their return so you know...
Click to expand...
To a point I agree. They've been unflashy owners who got something done. But imo they have not invested in that squad. They're taking care of infrastructure and preparing for a sale and they rely on a manager to give them an unlikely CL spot again. Klopp has not been well supported by FSG and he's done a much better job than many of his detractors give him credit for. If they get top 3/4 that'll be a hell of a result for them. He almost did it after a few months in the job when they had that EL final.

They require a billionaire who will spend like a drunken sailor for 5 solid years to get back to the top.
 

@davek hence why Klopp was chosen over Ancelotti as the latter suggested a number of additions to the squad if he were to take over the reigns.

Those signatures would have cost money hence going against the owners' model or at least extending the time for the club to reach profitability.

Klopp on the other hand said he'd work with the squad, which is the cheaper option, and even worked at a negative net spend in the Summer.

He's their (the hierarchy's) perfect manager while also having the charisma that their fans laud. Only in a few years will it all become unstuck.
 
PhilM said:
@davek hence why Klopp was chosen over Ancelotti as the latter suggested a number of additions to the squad if he were to take over the reigns.

Those signatures would have cost money hence going against the owners' model or at least extending the time for the club to reach profitability.

Klopp on the other hand said he'd work with the squad, which is the cheaper option, and even worked at a negative net spend in the Summer.

He's their (the hierarchy's) perfect manager while also having the charisma that their fans laud. Only in a few years will it all become unstuck.
Click to expand...
Yes, I concede he's a prisoner to his own words on taking the job up. But two windows went by and the additions were limited. The January window was a blow and it's clear Klopp felt additions should have been made to nail down a CL spot.

I sense the whole dynamic over there is about to change again soon. Small but significant cracks are developing between the club-manager-support base over spending. If they failed to get a CL spot the whole thing would start tearing apart.
 

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