ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

[bluestevon]

I dont know. I think you can make a case for any manager who likes his team to press to have the finger pointed at them over injuries. Spurs have had a horrendous catalogue of injuries. Pochettino was very defensive about that when Danny Murphy made the point that Spurs players hamstrings were popping regularly with his style of training and playing.

Oh it goes without saying that the harder the team works and trains then it will tend to pick up more injuries, flip side is a team that works far too little will also pick up a lot more injuries, theirs a balance.

The thing with Klopp is though - he really front loads his preparation to try maximise the start to the season, with an absolutely intense pre season training schedule by all accounts, Koeman on the flip side seems to be the other end of the spectrum - one who seeks a very strong fitness later in the season (believe Martinez was also an advocate of that btw)

So with Klopp you have an intense style of play and training which going into the second half of the season is being demanded from players who've already ran a bit out of steam - and thats when injuries will start mounting up. Will try dig the post up i mad showing some of the main players at Dortmund mate, and the sheer number of injuries they received - and the fact a good few of them have effectively broken down to the point of being semi washed up in their late 20's

 

[bluestevon]

Really good points there mate.

Will add a couple of other things to it as well, they trumpeted the lad they got on a free from Germany as one of the best cb's in the league, based on a good couple of months and when he started breaking down with injuries, they ignored that there was all that about him being injury prone and missing games with little niggles from his time in Germany, if you like, he has a reputation as a bit of a fanny - there's a good reason he was available on a free - he's Sturridge mark 2.

Also when players in a Klopp system start to pick up a knock here and there, it will only ever become progressively worse, he puts a huge strain on players, and once they start to break down due to that, then they will never be fully over it and will just become injury prone

Can see it if you look at how many Dortmund players in their mid 20's (or more accurately - after a couple of seasons working under Klopps system) seemed to become alarmingly prone to picking up multiple injuries per season, and even after they left it followed them around and it increases over time.

Hummels - 18 separate injuries from 14/15 season to this
Gundogan - 16 separate injuries in the same time period
Subotic - 11 in the same period
Reuss - 21 injuries in the same period of time
Gotze - 11 in that period (in his final year at Dortmund though he had 7 separate injuries)
Bender - 21 separate injuries since 14/15
Sokratis - 18 in that time frame

Soon as they have played a couple of seasons under Klopps system, the players literally started to break down, 3 of those 7 above are all but finished at top level now due to persistent fitness issues whilst still in their 20's (and this is by no means a biased sample as just took 7 high profile players who played multiple seasons under Klopp)

Yes obviously there is exceptions to the rule - like Lewandowski for example, but some players are just naturally very very resilient.

@davek - thats the post mate

 

[davek]

Oh it goes without saying that the harder the team works and trains then it will tend to pick up more injuries, flip side is a team that works far too little will also pick up a lot more injuries, theirs a balance.

The thing with Klopp is though - he really front loads his preparation to try maximise the start to the season, with an absolutely intense pre season training schedule by all accounts, Koeman on the flip side seems to be the other end of the spectrum - one who seeks a very strong fitness later in the season (believe Martinez was also an advocate of that btw)

So with Klopp you have an intense style of play and training which going into the second half of the season is being demanded from players who've already ran a bit out of steam - and thats when injuries will start mounting up. Will try dig the post up i mad showing some of the main players at Dortmund mate, and the sheer number of injuries they received - and the fact a good few of them have effectively broken down to the point of being semi washed up in their late 20's

@davek - thats the post mate

I think there's a case also that if you are a successful team then the likelihood is that you play much more games than other teams and your body is under a lot more pressure to perform throughout a long season. They had to take on the resources of Bayern Munich domestically and that maybe required getting off to a flyer to get a good lead on them early each season, hence his punishing regime pre season that you point out. Again, maybe he has to do that here if he's not allowed funds to compete for top players.

But IIRC there is some flexibility to Klopp. He changed the way Dortmund pressed from full throttle all game to one where they did it in waves then settled back. That must surely suggest he can adapt if necessary. If that style of football is too costly then I dont see him not evolving.

 

[bluestevon]

I think there's a case also that if you are a successful team then the likelihood is that you play much more games than other teams and your body is under a lot more pressure to perform throughout a long season. They had to take on the resources of Bayern Munich domestically and that maybe required getting off to a flyer to get a good lead on them early each season, hence his punishing regime pre season that you point out. Again, maybe he has to do that here if he's not allowed funds to compete for top players.

But IIRC there is some flexibility to Klopp. He changed the way Dortmund pressed from full throttle all game to one where they did it in waves then settled back. That must surely suggest he can adapt if necessary. If that style of football is too costly then I dont see him not evolving.

Think at Dortmund their was a difference though mate, they where far far superior to every team besides Bayern, also the German league doesn't have near the intensity of this one, so he can't take his foot of the gas, when he does you get games like Swansea, Bournemouth, and various others where they drop results in.

It's costly but only for the players careers mate, Klopp honestly won't care a jot about what happens to the players later in there careers or once they leave the club, but m what it does mean is that for all the positives about his system IT IS flawed - otherwise people would just copy/paste the strategy - they don't because it isn't some magic golden answer that Koppites seem to believe it is.

Basically though he won't adapt, very few managers truly do, he's been in management now for 15+ years playing and training the exact same way

 

[catcherintherye]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...s/exclusive-liverpool-fc-board-split-12886637

Interesting story concerning the FSG takeover, one that will have some bit for their supporters given how the mood seems to be swinging against FSG.

If they dont spend big in the summer I can see FSG facing a rebellion.

Definitely this. The FSG thread on Rawk is pure popcorn.

The leaked stories by Ian Doyle about 200 million to spend are bluff from them. Let's see if they c an deliver that sort of investment. It has temporarily bought them time but failure will see a bigger decline.

 

[davek]

Think at Dortmund their was a difference though mate, they where far far superior to every team besides Bayern, also the German league doesn't have near the intensity of this one, so he can't take his foot of the gas, when he does you get games like Swansea, Bournemouth, and various others where they drop results in.

It's costly but only for the players careers mate, Klopp honestly won't care a jot about what happens to the players later in there careers or once they leave the club, but m what it does mean is that for all the positives about his system IT IS flawed - otherwise people would just copy/paste the strategy - they don't because it isn't some magic golden answer that Koppites seem to believe it is.

Basically though he won't adapt, very few managers truly do, he's been in management now for 15+ years playing and training the exact same way

My assessment of Klopp is that he's done a very decent job so far.

Two cup finals and what looks to be a top four finish in less than two seasons. And he did that largely with another manager's players plus a couple of pricey signings.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if he gets the chance to spend a lot of cash this summer. Managers come here to England's big clubs because they know they can do things they hadn't been able to before in Spain (outside the big two), Germany and Italy: use massive spending to roll out their vision. If he's backed then maybe we see a manager who can spread the heavy workload across more players, which he's been unable to thus far, and we'll see less chronic injuries suffered. It was obvious that they fell away around the winter period when his Dortmund team would have had a month to recharge batteries. More quality players = more rotation = less fatigue...that would be my guess.

 

[davek]

Definitely this. The FSG thread on Rawk is pure popcorn.

The leaked stories by Ian Doyle about 200 million to spend are bluff from them. Let's see if they c an deliver that sort of investment. It has temporarily bought them time but failure will see a bigger decline.

That Spirit of Shankly group have had a massive axe to grind with them since they arrived at Anfield. The relations between FSG and the wider Liverpool fan base is not that good either.

In a way I can see parallels with them and us now: there will be a massive rupturing at each club over the balance between squad development and infrastructure spending if the wrong moves are made.

 

[hallamblue]

I think any half decent manager should have got them in the top 4. The league has been weak for a few years now, since that last good Chelsea team disbanded. Leicester won it last year for goodness sake. The test will come next season. A full campaign with Europe and 2 cups. I don't think they can handle it with the way they play.

 

[Kinghowie]

I think any half decent manager should have got them in the top 4. The league has been weak for a few years now, since that last good Chelsea team disbanded. Leicester won it last year for goodness sake. The test will come next season. A full campaign with Europe and 2 cups. I don't think they can handle it with the way they play.

Why would any half decent Manager have got them top 4? Their team isn't that good, he has them over performing IMO, We got a striker that could finish top scorer, a good midfield and we're finishing 6th or 7th, If the League is weak as you say, what does that say of us? We should have been fighting for a top 4 place, is their team better than ours? I dont think so. Any half decent manager, with Lukaku finishing top scorer, should have us higher, fighting it out with the likes of them, and poor UTD and Arsenal teams.

 

[Yorkie]

Leicester fans starting to big up that Shakespeare, Much ado about nothing in my opinion.

I see what thou did there.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

I see what thou did there.

I don't think it got the recognition it deserved from the heathens on here.

 

[ToffeeDan]

With Arsenal currently outside the Top 6 Chelsea have the chance to steal The RS's self-declared Top Six Mini League trophy - with 4 points needed from games at Man U and Everton required to overhaul the already crowned self-appointed ("won it in March") Top Six Mini League winners (NB if Arsenal miss out on the top 6).

 

[paultheblue]

My assessment of Klopp is that he's done a very decent job so far.

Two cup finals and what looks to be a top four finish in less than two seasons. And he did that largely with another manager's players plus a couple of pricey signings.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if he gets the chance to spend a lot of cash this summer. Managers come here to England's big clubs because they know they can do things they hadn't been able to before in Spain (outside the big two), Germany and Italy: use massive spending to roll out their vision. If he's backed then maybe we see a manager who can spread the heavy workload across more players, which he's been unable to thus far, and we'll see less chronic injuries suffered. It was obvious that they fell away around the winter period when his Dortmund team would have had a month to recharge batteries. More quality players = more rotation = less fatigue...that would be my guess.

Or he could be just a massive blert full of piss and wind

 

[davek]

Or he could be just a massive blert full of piss and wind

We'll see where they end up. personally I think they'll get CL footy and if they do that is value for money for them in terms of how much they gave him to spend. A very impressive season.

 

[AndyC]

We'll see where they end up. personally I think they'll get CL footy and if they do that is value for money for them in terms of how much they gave him to spend. A very impressive season.

Interesting post that Dave.

In something of a similar analysis, with him inheriting a squad that was at best dispirited, had an indifferent autumn period and has suffered some awful injuries losses - wouldn't you at least give Koeman half the credit you're suggesting Herr Klopp is deserving of ?