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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

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I remember saying pre-derby that a draw would give us a really good chance of catching them, as they look like a side in free-fall to me. Everything that has happened post derby has proven this to be true. They haven’t deserved to win any of the subsequent games and had the much maligned Mignolet not performed miracles they’d have probably had 2/3 points from the following games. Their loss of form will come a little too late for us to catch them, if the season were 6 or 7 games longer I’d strongly fancy us, but it doesn’t bode well for next season.

The other issue that was thrown up yesterday is not just that this is a patchy run of form but is indicative of a wider malaise indicative of an end to the Klopp Honeymoon. I had a little look and saw that since New year 2016 (plus the Christmas fixtures) to the end of the year Klopps Liverpool picked up 79 points in 39 games. Not quite title winning form but in all likelihood enough to finish second and impressive given the cup Competitions they were in and gave priority too. In 2017 that has subsequently dropped to 23 points from 15 games. Aggragated across a season that would give them 58 points which would see them likely cut adrift in 7th place. If you look at all games this season of sides Championship and higher that record is 23 points from 18 games (giving them 49 points across a season)

No doubt they will stand behind the “injuries” and temporary loss of form argument. I think injuries are endemic to Klopp’s style which is well established (and likely to get worse under European football) while the loss of form argument can’t really stand up when you are looking at a 4 month sample of 18 games.

I do think there is an issue with the length of season and Klop’s style isn’t able to stand up to the ferocity of a full Premier League season without a winter break. However what would be more alarming to me as a Liverpool fan would be the sudden drop in 2017.

The rot set in before that. They were average in the Derby but also home draws against West Ham and appalling defeats conceding 4 goals at Bournemouth were very telling. What you saw at Dortmund was a hugely successful initial phase before almost irreversible decline. A similar story at Mainz. The same looks to be happening at Liverpool, but given the unique nature of the league and that club it looks the same pattern is occurring but in fast forward.

As people have said, the impact of the process may be lessened (though for my money not thwarted) by spending big. Champions league is essential for them. They have waited until it looked it was inked in to brashly announce another 200 million spend. Lots of Kopites I know are already keeping them to that. Big problems brewing if that’s not spent.
 
Chunky Frankfurter said:
But you cannot judge teams just on paper. If you did, Liverpool would not be top scoring team. Their first eleven (really their attacking players) are very effective together. Tottenham are similar to Liverpool, their bench is poor on paper. The difference between Spurs and Liverpool is Spurs are much more balanced. They score, but also can defend really, really good. Look at Real Madrid and their Galacticos, incredible individuals, but far less impressive as a team. There is more to a team than great individuals.

If you look at just names, would most people have Tottenham as second best in the league? I don't think so.

We are seventh because we have seventh best squad. If we had a better squad, we would not be behind eight points behind Liverpool and lose to them twice. Their bench is pathetic, but their starting players are really good together. If Man U and Arsenal win their games in hand on us, there will be quite a gap between us and them.

That can definitely change next season though.

Also, Rodgers signed Milner.

Pochettino has won nothing, bottled the league last season, awful in Europe and not even cup final. Talented, very, but managers are judged on winning trophies.

But for point number six, I agree so much. A great manager that can take us into the top teams and more importantly, win trophies.
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I would have spurs as the second best In the league behind Chelsea yes. Spurs bench has trippier, davies, vorm, son, nkondou (needs more time), janssen (jurys out), lamella, lopez (gk who has a lot of talent - vault me) winks, sissoko and wimmer. All players decent enough to cover the first 11.

Liverpool have woodburn, Moreno, gomez, grujic, trent Arnold, not exactly players with quality im afraid.

The fact Spurs play as a team is the difference between them and LFC, like you said when the attack isn't effective, then what ?
We are seventh because we are behind the top 6 (no that was not sarcasm) in terms of squad and form in December. Difference is we have a new owner, manager, DOF, ideas and are about 9 months into a 5 year project. Klopp already has 18 months or so.
In terms of Milner you are right, milner brought in by Rodgers, yet wanted to be CM under Klopp. Instead Klopp swerved the defence and put everything into attack. Every red knows they needed a LB, because Moreno was erratic.

There is a huge gap like you said, my issue isn't with that because its a fact. My issue is that you make out like LFC/Klopp are greatness personified. They have done well this season, I don't think the gap tells the whole story, it comes down to Everton giving them 6 points every season for almost a decade without fight. If we actually win the derbies next year lets see how it all pans out, not that its the be all end all, more a case of I guarantee we will be competing with them, depending on UCL qualification this year.

If Pochettino has done nothing, then Klopp has done nothing either. Some great managers have joined the BPL and left as duds not studs.
Conte is miles ahead of Klopp, which you seemed to have swerved altogether, pep and jose are class managers, wenger has done it for two decades here.
 
I think Klopp is a good manager but.. there's a but. I can't put my finger on it, mostly because I don't pontificate on their style, injuries or whatever. Maybe it's less tangible. Maybe it's always about keeping 18 or 20 players happy which, for 10 years plus Moyes managed because he managed expectations on a shoestring budget. Let's be fair to Moyes - he did well in so much as he managed to keep us competitive by outplaying all the teams below us (no doubt almost as good as all the other teams) but we fell away in the games he needed to carry a gun and sharp shooter. Moyes didn't have the means to put a title challenge in. So Moyes failed when the expectation was much higher (United)... probably ditto Klopp - Dortmund were the 2nd biggest fish in the pond.. and all those lovely Wenger style CL runs were great for Dortmund. He's now expected to exceed that level with a very ordinary squad in a highly competitive league. If you had a Klopp mentality for the tough games and a Moyes one for the rest then you'd be cooking on gas.. but he obviously struggles to do the mundane and break down the teams that refuse to sign up to being cowered by his ordinary soldats.

Or something like that...
 
Chunky Frankfurter said:
No, I am not a Liverpool fan. Everton are my English team and my second team to Dinamo. I don't understand tribal football. Even my Dinamo supporting friends go crazy about little things and I don't understand it. I just enjoy football, many more things to worry and get angry about in life for me. I cannot hate a player or person just because they play for a certain team. I would happily take Mane and Lallana at Everton, and Mane especially is the type of player we need, so when I see someone say that they think he isn't too good, I have to respond. People would turn down Mane?? Crazy. Klopp would love a wonderful full back like Coleman. It goes many ways.

The main point I was trying to make, and maybe I didn't do it well enough, was saying that the teams in England aren't exactly wonderful, especially compared to about ten years ago and are quite a way behind the current best in Europe. No REALLY great midfielders in England. None of the current midfielders could compete with Scholes, Keane, Vieira, Lampard, Gerrard, Alonso, Essien, Makelele. Apart from Chelsea they are catchable, and I said I think Liverpool, because of Klopp are not as bad as they others, like Man U with no real medium/long term plan, Arsenal with or without Wenger and Man City needing serious change of players, although did good last summer adding much needed youth. Spurs will always have a ceiling.

We should be confident in ourselves to compete with these teams. That's all.
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I also question your agenda, to which I do apologise if im wrong, I would assume you are a dinamo Moscow fan ?
 

Chunky Frankfurter said:
Is he better than Pedro and Moses - Yes.

Is he better than Cuadrado and Mandzukic at Juve - Yes.

Would he get into Bayern team - Yes, better than Costa, Ribery, Coman and 2017 Robben.

So when you think about it, not at all ridiculous. Scores in big games too, very important.
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I thought you were Croatian?

This is the biggest load of sh¡t I've ever read on here btw and I've read (and posted) plenty of it.
 
No way is he Croatian, his written english is better than half this board although it did take a temporary turn for a worst following his post after his Evertonian status was questioned and his Dinamo support was first mentioned.
 
Paul Bernard said:
I would have spurs as the second best In the league behind Chelsea yes. Spurs bench has trippier, davies, vorm, son, nkondou (needs more time), janssen (jurys out), lamella, lopez (gk who has a lot of talent - vault me) winks, sissoko and wimmer. All players decent enough to cover the first 11.

Liverpool have woodburn, Moreno, gomez, grujic, trent Arnold, not exactly players with quality im afraid.

The fact Spurs play as a team is the difference between them and LFC, like you said when the attack isn't effective, then what ?
We are seventh because we are behind the top 6 (no that was not sarcasm) in terms of squad and form in December. Difference is we have a new owner, manager, DOF, ideas and are about 9 months into a 5 year project. Klopp already has 18 months or so.
In terms of Milner you are right, milner brought in by Rodgers, yet wanted to be CM under Klopp. Instead Klopp swerved the defence and put everything into attack. Every red knows they needed a LB, because Moreno was erratic.

There is a huge gap like you said, my issue isn't with that because its a fact. My issue is that you make out like LFC/Klopp are greatness personified. They have done well this season, I don't think the gap tells the whole story, it comes down to Everton giving them 6 points every season for almost a decade without fight. If we actually win the derbies next year lets see how it all pans out, not that its the be all end all, more a case of I guarantee we will be competing with them, depending on UCL qualification this year.

If Pochettino has done nothing, then Klopp has done nothing either. Some great managers have joined the BPL and left as duds not studs.
Conte is miles ahead of Klopp, which you seemed to have swerved altogether, pep and jose are class managers, wenger has done it for two decades here.
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I think the key difference between Spurs and Liverpool is quality of recruitment. Spurs have recruited well for a long time, and now they have a good manager it is the perfect marriage. Liverpool for me are still spending big fees on ordinary players. On Sunday that Grugic looked hopeless, Alexander Arnold looks ordinary and is in as a token scouser, Origi looks like he has a case of grandular fever etc. As for the signings, Klavan has been at best hit and miss, Wijnaldum has been a good signing, Karuis has been atrocious and Mane has done well for them (though has less goals than Benteke).

They don't recruit well and the longer they keep playing this moneyball approach the better for me. Their strength was always buying good players with little risk, and indoctrinating them into the Anfield method of winning constantly.

Pochettino has proven over the last couple of years he's well ahead of Klopp in terms of ability and humility. I really thought they'd fall away this season but they come back stronger. He has very strong foundations. Liverpool look to me like a club with foundations built on sand, desperate to attain things before they've put a solid basis in. When I come to think of it, it's hard to think of any Liverpool player who I'd put in ahead of Spurs lads. Clyne? No (as we see from the fact he's Walkers understudy at England). Centre halves? Definitely not. Wijnaldum? Possibly but not sure he's an upgrade on Dembele. Coutinho? Not as consistent as Eriksen. Mane? Not as effective as Son/Alli. Firmino? Not in the league league as Kane.

When you looked at the last 20 minutes of that game, what you saw was a side in a huge mess and a side clueless in how to get a shot on target in open play-when chasing a game against relegation fodder. He's tinkering with a system he knows, to one he has no idea how to play. Personnel all out of position. Moving senior players to accomodate young lads. He moves to wing backs and takes Clyne off for christ sake! I am not sure yesterday was an aberration though, if that 11 was put out every weak next season they would be in a relegation dogfight. They were Coutinho away from looking like Boro or Sunderland.

Meanwhile you have tubby idiots like Atkinson telling us no Everton player could get in their team, including the lads who's got 4 more goals than any striker in the league, and that they are title contenders. Serious requirements of giving ones head a wobble is needed.
 

Sapie88 said:
I thought you were Croatian?

This is the biggest load of sh¡t I've ever read on here btw and I've read (and posted) plenty of it.
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I am. Mandzukic is great, but he is not a wide man.

I would LOVE Mandzukic at Everton, but at Juve he plays out wide most of the time and he is definitely not a wide man. His best seasons came at Bayern and Atletico when he was a striker.

I hope he returns to Dinamo at some stage. Even if he is in mid thirties, he would dominate our league.
 

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