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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

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catcherintherye said:
I remember saying pre-derby that a draw would give us a really good chance of catching them, as they look like a side in free-fall to me. Everything that has happened post derby has proven this to be true. They haven’t deserved to win any of the subsequent games and had the much maligned Mignolet not performed miracles they’d have probably had 2/3 points from the following games. Their loss of form will come a little too late for us to catch them, if the season were 6 or 7 games longer I’d strongly fancy us, but it doesn’t bode well for next season.

The other issue that was thrown up yesterday is not just that this is a patchy run of form but is indicative of a wider malaise indicative of an end to the Klopp Honeymoon. I had a little look and saw that since New year 2016 (plus the Christmas fixtures) to the end of the year Klopps Liverpool picked up 79 points in 39 games. Not quite title winning form but in all likelihood enough to finish second and impressive given the cup Competitions they were in and gave priority too. In 2017 that has subsequently dropped to 23 points from 15 games. Aggragated across a season that would give them 58 points which would see them likely cut adrift in 7th place. If you look at all games this season of sides Championship and higher that record is 23 points from 18 games (giving them 49 points across a season)

No doubt they will stand behind the “injuries” and temporary loss of form argument. I think injuries are endemic to Klopp’s style which is well established (and likely to get worse under European football) while the loss of form argument can’t really stand up when you are looking at a 4 month sample of 18 games.

I do think there is an issue with the length of season and Klop’s style isn’t able to stand up to the ferocity of a full Premier League season without a winter break. However what would be more alarming to me as a Liverpool fan would be the sudden drop in 2017.

The rot set in before that. They were average in the Derby but also home draws against West Ham and appalling defeats conceding 4 goals at Bournemouth were very telling. What you saw at Dortmund was a hugely successful initial phase before almost irreversible decline. A similar story at Mainz. The same looks to be happening at Liverpool, but given the unique nature of the league and that club it looks the same pattern is occurring but in fast forward.

As people have said, the impact of the process may be lessened (though for my money not thwarted) by spending big. Champions league is essential for them. They have waited until it looked it was inked in to brashly announce another 200 million spend. Lots of Kopites I know are already keeping them to that. Big problems brewing if that’s not spent.
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Is Klopp's 'style' that radical and distinctive that trying to transport it from Germany to the PL has proven it to fall apart in the absence of a winter break? The players are the same players, why would they suddenly succumb to a post Christmas crash purely because their manager is used to a few weeks off?
 
Surely the "not being able to play a full season without a winter break" issue will be resolved next season?

He may act like a fool but i dont think Klopp is stupid enough to just ignore that issue, im sure him and his staff will be spending alot of time working out how to get around that issue in the summer
 
catcherintherye said:
I remember saying pre-derby that a draw would give us a really good chance of catching them, as they look like a side in free-fall to me. Everything that has happened post derby has proven this to be true. They haven’t deserved to win any of the subsequent games and had the much maligned Mignolet not performed miracles they’d have probably had 2/3 points from the following games. Their loss of form will come a little too late for us to catch them, if the season were 6 or 7 games longer I’d strongly fancy us, but it doesn’t bode well for next season.

The other issue that was thrown up yesterday is not just that this is a patchy run of form but is indicative of a wider malaise indicative of an end to the Klopp Honeymoon. I had a little look and saw that since New year 2016 (plus the Christmas fixtures) to the end of the year Klopps Liverpool picked up 79 points in 39 games. Not quite title winning form but in all likelihood enough to finish second and impressive given the cup Competitions they were in and gave priority too. In 2017 that has subsequently dropped to 23 points from 15 games. Aggragated across a season that would give them 58 points which would see them likely cut adrift in 7th place. If you look at all games this season of sides Championship and higher that record is 23 points from 18 games (giving them 49 points across a season)

No doubt they will stand behind the “injuries” and temporary loss of form argument. I think injuries are endemic to Klopp’s style which is well established (and likely to get worse under European football) while the loss of form argument can’t really stand up when you are looking at a 4 month sample of 18 games.

I do think there is an issue with the length of season and Klop’s style isn’t able to stand up to the ferocity of a full Premier League season without a winter break. However what would be more alarming to me as a Liverpool fan would be the sudden drop in 2017.

The rot set in before that. They were average in the Derby but also home draws against West Ham and appalling defeats conceding 4 goals at Bournemouth were very telling. What you saw at Dortmund was a hugely successful initial phase before almost irreversible decline. A similar story at Mainz. The same looks to be happening at Liverpool, but given the unique nature of the league and that club it looks the same pattern is occurring but in fast forward.

As people have said, the impact of the process may be lessened (though for my money not thwarted) by spending big. Champions league is essential for them. They have waited until it looked it was inked in to brashly announce another 200 million spend. Lots of Kopites I know are already keeping them to that. Big problems brewing if that’s not spent.
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And yet Lawrenson has them top of his predictor league with zero defeats!
 

Raino85 said:
Surely the "not being able to play a full season without a winter break" issue will be resolved next season?

He may act like a fool but i dont think Klopp is stupid enough to just ignore that issue, im sure him and his staff will be spending alot of time working out how to get around that issue in the summer
Click to expand...

He will certainly try to address it. The answer to the problem though may negatively impact other areas and he may not be effective at this. The answer is to play with a lower level of intensity, not to front load at the start of the season, close down less, run less, give players bigger rest time etc.

Every team he has managed has been kick and rush, press and tackle. He is generally good at this approach (albeit with some mishaps/relegations on his cv). However there is little evidence to show he has the sophistication, intelligence or tactical astuteness to play a different way. When you look at Klopp you don't see a manager like Mourinho or Conte who is adaptable and can make systems work to suit different enviroments.

I don't see a manager who thrive in a possession based game that may require sophistication to break down. This is why Real Madrid laughed him out of the room when he was suggested as a future manager. It's also why lads who don't fit the paradigm of being able to run are jettisoned. Benteke and Sturridge are miles ahead of any of Firmino, Origi or Ings, but those 3 fit his system. He's not adaptive enough to break from his tramlines.
 
mawders said:
And yet Lawrenson has them top of his predictor league with zero defeats!
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In one sentence you have the Kopite delusion summed up there. In their heads they are the champions and always will be. Despite the fact they have picked up 23 points from 18 games (league 1 and above opposition) this calendar year.
 
Raino85 said:
Surely the "not being able to play a full season without a winter break" issue will be resolved next season?

He may act like a fool but i dont think Klopp is stupid enough to just ignore that issue, im sure him and his staff will be spending alot of time working out how to get around that issue in the summer
Click to expand...

Don't see this at all. He played 5 or 6 games in a short space of time around christmas, of them he rested players for the cup games. If he gets into Europe he'll be doing this all throughout the season but won't have the luxury of resting most of the team. It's not a winter break they need to worry about, it'll be the whole season.
 
The Cowboy said:
Is Klopp's 'style' that radical and distinctive that trying to transport it from Germany to the PL has proven it to fall apart in the absence of a winter break? The players are the same players, why would they suddenly succumb to a post Christmas crash purely because their manager is used to a few weeks off?
Click to expand...

I think the short answer to the first question is yes. His methods at Dortmund (and Mainz) had long term damage on both clubs. Lots of injuries and lads burnt out. That was in a a league which at the time was some way below the intensity and standard of the Premier league (particularly the poorer teams) with 4 fewer games. Lots of fitness people who work high up in the game have highlighted major concerns with his approach, such as Arsenals former head of Sports and nutrition.

As for why? Thats a good question. Football is often about the 1 or 2% these days. I think you saw it with us and Martinez, it's hard to regain optimum fitness, and far more complex than just getting them to run. preparing athletes for a 10 month season takes careful planning. The Liverpool team to me now looks devoid of energy and intensity. It looks what it is, a group of lads who've had the nuts run off them and are running on empty.

Alongside that though, and what I find most interesting is as you said last season this was averted (albeit his methods only started in October). The form in 2017 is 23 points from 18 games. The form in 2016 was 79 from 39. It's a massive drop. From being a title contender to being a side that would finish in the bottom half. That is a massive loss of momentum. I think his honeymoon phase has gone and the real challenges begin now, and wonder if some of the players may be starting to question his methods?

For me this was his season to win the league. No European football, bedding in seasons for Conte, Mourinho & Pep, Wenger completely losing his players at Arsenal, Koemans first season at Everton etc. This allied to not having any of the long term problems associated with his Dortmund team and injuries, and a very strong start to the season all indicated this was their best opportunity. They completely fluffed their lines. What will be the impact of this going forward?

It's hard not to see Manchester City and United not kicking on next season. We will get better as well and have forward momentum. Spurs will remain solid. What happens with Chelsea is anyone's bet. However they look like the side in the top 7 who have the least forward momentum currently.
 

catcherintherye said:
I had a little look this morning, as it interested me. It is 23 from 15 in the league, plus defeats to Southampton x 2 and Wolves x 1 in the cups. I am omitting the Plymouth home draw to save some blushes.
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The sane RS was on similar lines. Only half an ear on it, but basically he said no plan B, and plan A means the supporters are expecting teams to come at them later in games, a la Palace.

Knackered, in a nut shell.

But still in a decent league position, which is just annoying.
 
roydo said:
The sane RS was on similar lines. Only half an ear on it, but basically he said no plan B, and plan A means the supporters are expecting teams to come at them later in games, a la Palace.

Knackered, in a nut shell.

But still in a decent league position, which is just annoying.
Click to expand...

Yes they got off to a flyer this season. It's a shame the season isn't another 5 games longer as we'd end up above them!

The sane ones are starting to see the warning signs for me. They still concede too many goals off set plays and crosses. That hasn't been sorted with the existing personnel. Matip is a truly awful signing, I can't believe they rate him so highly. His mobility and reading of the game are terrible. Look at his positioning for yesterday's first goal. Whats he thinking? He has 1 job, get goal side of Benteke. I am not sure he thinks like a defender.

You can tell some are getting tetchy as some of the fans leaders are starting to harden their message around the defence of Klopp. I always find TAW interesting for this. Tubby Atkinson with his wool partner in crime Gutman are starting to go on the offensive towards those questioning Klopp. Nuggets such as "even if we don't finish 3rd we have still been the 2nd or 3rd best team this season and thats how it should be judged" are being put out there.

Essentially, irrespective of evidence of concrete evidence and facts presented, to be a good red you have to ignore them and listen to an opinion which dictates where they should finish. It's an anti-truth approach and will start to see them becoming more vicious with those who speak the truth in analysis the performance of Klopp. Reds either have to get into line Orwell style with 2+2=5 and a 4th place or worse finish doesn't mean you finished 4th, they actually finished second because Atkinson says thats where they deserved to finish. (all this backed up by weird pseudo-scientific alternative league tables). You'll see more of this if Mourinho catches them and finishes above Klopp.

The saddest part is, they are still convinced half of Europe are running around terrified of them. As I keep saying I'm sure Madrid and Barca are lacking their pants at the thought of a side who couldn't put away Plymouth, Southampton, Wolves, Swansea or Crystal Palace at home this year.
 

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