Everton vs DC United

[ToxtethBlue]

Creativity isn't just about getting an 'assist'. Players like Mikel Arteta and Luka Modric are perfect examples of that. Link up play, passing from deep, everything counts really.

 

[billycopper]

Anything could happen, to be honest. I don't like to look at things like that, especially when we are talking about him playing in a completely different position over a long period of time. Osman could score three goals all season next year, or he might score ten. It's difficult to say until you actually see it. Nothing is a dead cert really. Even towards the end of last season, Osman wasn't always playing behind the striker, he also played on the left and right wing, so it's not really a fair comparison.

Cahill scores more goals than Xavi and Iniesta, do you think Barca would play him ahead of them because of this? No chance. It could be argued that a more technical, creative footballer in the hole would open up more avenues for us in terms of creating chances. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to bash Tim but we do play to his strengths. We look to create space for crossing oppurtunities and it all becomes a little predictable, especially when our wide players are hardly our strongest outlets.

He wouldn't even be my first choice player to play there (Osman) and I think Cahill will certainly play his part next season, but there's nothing wrong with trying different things. There isn't one way of playing, and looking at players like Osman, Saha and Rodwell in that role wouldn't be a bad thing. We clearly struggle when it comes to breaking teams down, so you can't just stick with what you've got and hope for the best. We should be looking to progress.

This might surprise you, but I pretty much agree with what you just said. One compromise would be to play Cahill in a flat 4 with Arteta to his left and Fellaini alongside him. We could try Ossie on the right. That would allow us to play with two strikers. Kuyt is a similar type of player and his able to get forward to support the strikers from the right of midfield for Liverpool. I suppose there's a chance that it could work with him there, shielding Coleman, but I suspect that we'd end up with him being a poor right 'winger' and too far away from the danger area.

Alternatively, we could try him tucked in to a 4-2-3-1 like Kuyt for Holland or Muller for Germany. We'd have our version of Sneijder or Ozil in the middle (Osman? Arteta?) and more of a winger like Robben or Podolski (N'Zogbia?) on the opposite side.

 

[kenada_blue]

Creativity isn't just about getting an 'assist'. Players like Mikel Arteta and Luka Modric are perfect examples of that. Link up play, passing from deep, everything counts really.

I felt Roswell did that as good as Arteta last season when he played centrally with Heitinga...

 

[kenada_blue]

This might surprise you, but I pretty much agree with what you just said. One compromise would be to play Cahill in a flat 4 with Arteta to his left and Fellaini alongside him. We could try Ossie on the right. That would allow us to play with two strikers. Kuyt is a similar type of player and his able to get forward to support the strikers from the right of midfield for Liverpool. I suppose there's a chance that it could work with him there, shielding Coleman, but I suspect that we'd end up with him being a poor right 'winger' and too far away from the danger area.

Alternatively, we could try him tucked in to a 4-2-3-1 like Kuyt for Holland or Muller for Germany. We'd have our version of Sneijder or Ozil in the middle (Osman? Arteta?) and more of a winger like Robben or Podolski (N'Zogbia?) on the opposite side.

Osman should never play on the right.

 

[billycopper]

But they're stats that are a bit off being that Osman for most of those games were from the wing, a position he's poor at.

Artetas return is poor after he takes all the set pieces. He also sits very deep. And most of his assists came from either a good set piece or the wing.

You slap Osman off a striker, you get more assists. You open up more options than just getting a cross in the box for Cahill to score, it also gives you main striker more room to move and be the focal point.

There is no problem in having a Cahill on the bench to change a game as we don't have many game changers. Its also no problem which I've said many times before that that you look at the opposition and set your team for them...that can include Cahill starting etc

Moyes never does that and rotate depending on the opposition when he should. Hell limit injuries and also offer more options

I hope this is the case next season, but I know it won't happen

Some people are arguing that I'm way off. I know stats don't prove everything, but I'm trying to build a case for the point I'm trying to make. There seems to be quite a broad sense of agreement that Cahill's position dictates how we play and that he needs to be removed to allow us to be more creative. I've put forward reasons why he needs to be retained somewhere in the side, but some people aren't prepared to listen.

If we're going to persist with 4-4-1-1, then I'd like to see Bily rotated in the hole. I agree with you that using the same players in the same system is predictable. I really don't think that Tim would accept the supersub role though. Especially given the contribution he's made to the side over the years. And I couldn't blame him. If opposition defenders looked at our teamsheet and saw that Cahill wasn't starting, they'd breathe a sigh of relief. He gets in their face and occupies them, leaving space for his teammates to take advantage of. Without his physical presence, we would get more bullied.

Fergie adapted the role that Scholes played and used him in a deeper position. According to Canada Toffee, who was at the game, Cahill was a revelation playing in a flat midfield. Why shouldn't we explore that option further?

 

[Roztitute]

I couldn't watch is lads how were Barkley, Vellios, Gueye and McAleny? Thanks.

 

[billycopper]

Osman should never play on the right.

I don't think that Osman is as good as you think he is. He's a neat, little player on his day and he's earned a place on recent performances, but I wouldn't build a side around him. Especially as he's 30 already.

 

[billycopper]

Creativity isn't just about getting an 'assist'. Players like Mikel Arteta and Luka Modric are perfect examples of that. Link up play, passing from deep, everything counts really.

If we're arguing the merits of two players we need some way to measure it, otherwise it's all just personal opinion.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

This might surprise you, but I pretty much agree with what you just said. One compromise would be to play Cahill in a flat 4 with Arteta to his left and Fellaini alongside him. We could try Ossie on the right. That would allow us to play with two strikers. Kuyt is a similar type of player and his able to get forward to support the strikers from the right of midfield for Liverpool. I suppose there's a chance that it could work with him there, shielding Coleman, but I suspect that we'd end up with him being a poor right 'winger' and too far away from the danger area.

Alternatively, we could try him tucked in to a 4-2-3-1 like Kuyt for Holland or Muller for Germany. We'd have our version of Sneijder or Ozil in the middle (Osman? Arteta?) and more of a winger like Robben or Podolski (N'Zogbia?) on the opposite side.

I'd rather play Cahill behind the striker than in the middle of the park, personally. He can play there, don't get me wrong, but we've got better options available to us in the likes of Arteta, Osman, Rodwell and possibly even Barkley if he keeps himself fit. I think it'd be a bit of a waste with the amount of talent we have in that area. I don't consider Fellaini or Cahill mobile enough in possession to take on the role of ball player, either.

We could always pack the midfield with creativity and play with two attacking, overlapping fullbacks. Then I think we could fit Cahill into the side quite easily without worrying about lacking creativity.

GK: Howard

RB: Coleman
CB: Jagielka
CB: Distin/Heitinga
LB: Baines

RM: Barkley
DM: Fellaini
CM: Osman (Osman gets the nod at the moment, Rodwell has a chance if he starts believing in himself)
LM: Arteta (best CM at the club but we need him outwide at the moment)

SS: Cahill

CF: Saha

 

[ToxtethBlue]

I felt Roswell did that as good as Arteta last season when he played centrally with Heitinga...

He didn't, nowhere near to be honest. Arteta is massively underestimated. Potentially, most definitely. He's got the ability to be whatever he wants. If he played like he did yesterday then I'd have no problem seeing him take over the role.

 

[Roztitute]

Just watched the highlights, brilliant goals!

 

[Brownie]

I'd rather play Cahill behind the striker than in the middle of the park, personally. He can play there, don't get me wrong, but we've got better options available to us in the likes of Arteta, Osman, Rodwell and possibly even Barkley if he keeps himself fit. I think it'd be a bit of a waste with the amount of talent we have in that area. I don't consider Fellaini or Cahill mobile enough in possession to take on the role of ball player, either.

We could always pack the midfield with creativity and play with two attacking, overlapping fullbacks. Then I think we could fit Cahill into the side quite easily without worrying about lacking creativity.

GK: Howard

RB: Coleman
CB: Jagielka
CB: Distin/Heitinga
LB: Baines

RM: Barkley
DM: Fellaini
CM: Osman (Osman gets the nod at the moment, Rodwell has a chance if he starts believing in himself)
LM: Arteta (best CM at the club but we need him outwide at the moment)

SS: Cahill

CF: Saha

Has this not been Moyes's system for the vast majority of his time here?

 

[DualityNSNO]

I'd rather play Cahill behind the striker than in the middle of the park, personally. He can play there, don't get me wrong, but we've got better options available to us in the likes of Arteta, Osman, Rodwell and possibly even Barkley if he keeps himself fit. I think it'd be a bit of a waste with the amount of talent we have in that area. I don't consider Fellaini or Cahill mobile enough in possession to take on the role of ball player, either.

We could always pack the midfield with creativity and play with two attacking, overlapping fullbacks. Then I think we could fit Cahill into the side quite easily without worrying about lacking creativity.

GK: Howard

RB: Coleman
CB: Jagielka
CB: Distin/Heitinga
LB: Baines

RM: Barkley
DM: Fellaini
CM: Osman (Osman gets the nod at the moment, Rodwell has a chance if he starts believing in himself)
LM: Arteta (best CM at the club but we need him outwide at the moment)

SS: Cahill

CF: Saha

This means we won't change a thing...

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Has this not been Moyes's system for the vast majority of his time here?

Not far off, He's always had that idea, but he's never used it properly. Neville doesn't get beyond his winger for a start, so it's pretty useless really. Osman has always struggled in the role aswell, The hope would be that Barkley can do a much better job there than previous players, with Coleman pushing on and offering us some width. It wouldn't be my first choice starting eleven, but if Cahill is going to play, then that's the team I'd be looking at.

 

[ijjysmith]

Anyone else concerned about how many times the defence got caught with balls over the top?

May just be early season rust buy had me worried.