Pabbers
Player Valuation: £60m
Bit early to be claiming Rice at that level....we all thought Davies was amazing after similar amout of games.
Only Rashford on that list imo can be classed as proven quality.
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Bit early to be claiming Rice at that level....we all thought Davies was amazing after similar amout of games.
Only Rashford on that list imo can be classed as proven quality.
Really bizarre to say that the likes of Chilwell and Wan Bissaka are a higher level than Barkley. In fact at the moment it's pushing it to suggest they're notably a higher level than Anichebe, Rodwell etc.
Ring master
Player Valuation: £90m
Mampala and Gordon pen were our scorers -though Rochdale say simms got our 1st https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2019/january/report-evertonaway_lancsseniorcup/ And Everton version http://www.evertonfc.com/news/2019/01/15/everton-under18s-exit-cup
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
Well in fairness mate you've mentioned Barkley who was after that! We've also had 2 lads who made over 400 appearances for us since 2003 (one of them got international recognition) and lads like Rodwell who we received a fee of £15 million + for when we sold them.
The big problem for me, is that we don't develop players very effectively from 18-24. If you look at the number of 17/18/19 year olds we bring through, nobody comes close to us. However most of them seem to flatline after that. This needs to be the pressing question that those at the club wrestle with. Most of the names you've mentioned above have continued to improve as they have got older. Most of ours don't. That's the riddle that needs solving.
I think a big part of it is just that we put lads in when a lot of teams don't. If you look at players like Davies and Kenny out of the current lot, they just look - to me, I appreciate others disagree - like they're lacking a little bit of star quality. We've given them opportunities because that's how we work as a club, but if they don't bloom and become important players it'll be because they weren't good enough, not because we didn't manage them well enough. They're players who lots of clubs would have just discarded without playing a game.
The other aspect of it is that we tend to big young players up as if they're a lot better than they actually are, and then get annoyed when they reach a certain age and we realise they're never going to be what we thought. If he'd come through at 95% of clubs, Barkley would be seen as a massive success story, but because people made out like he was going to be Rooney 2, there was a bit of disappointment when he 'only' became a regular England player who now plays regularly for a top 4 club. That disappointment is magnified when people make out like someone Galloway is going to be world class - and they did - only to find that actually he's absolutely bang average.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
Yes I think thats fair and some great points made. On the first we do tend to put lads in earlier. To me though it's not like the lads are awful. Davies was very comfortable when he first broke through. There is a suspicion he was riding on the crest of a wave. But Vaughan looked good. Barkley was the best player on the pitch at both 17 and 19 when he played. Rodwell looked comfortable at 16/17. To me they are all a fair bit ahead of younger players you see at other clubs at the same age. I'd also ask, why is the exposure they are given not helping them more? And if it starts to become a lot of players, not just the odd one, is there something systemic in players stalling?
I do agree we have a Rooney affect at the club. Generally Evertonian's expect the best and can be quite unforgiving and impatient. It's a good virtue to have in general though I'm not sure it helps younger players much (or anyone who has a potential that's greater than their current ability). There is a lot of black and white thinking, in that you are either the best player in the world or terrible. You see it with Davies now. He's not brilliant so he must be terrible. I saw people saying he was below average for his age last season (as a 19 year old) yet couldn't provide any examples of players who were just average in the league.
There does need to be a re-appraisal. Not every player through the system is going to be a Rooney. I saw Winks on Sunday who is a very tidy player. He'd probably be slaughtered here, but for Spurs he does a very decent job. They will likely sell him for 10+ million. Good business if you can get it.
The bolded bit is an important point I think, and goes some way to explaining the reasons for fans becoming disappointed when players don't kick on.
You're absolutely right that Rodwell looked comfortable as a young player, and because of that we tend to project on players like him, thinking that being comfortable at 17 means you'll be above average at 20, and starring at 22. It doesn't though. I think sometimes people overestimate the step up in quality to PL football in terms of just being able to hold your own. People talk about someone being 'a Premier League player' but what does that really mean? Look at Bournemouth and Brighton, with loads of players who spent half their careers outside the PL now performing just fine at this level, or sides like Sunderland who have players who were once seen as PL quality struggling to get promoted from League One.
If we put someone like Browning, Williams, or Markelo (I'm just plucking these at random, before someone points out why it wouldn't apply to one of them) in the side now, they wouldn't look horribly out of place, but ultimately it may become clear that they don't have sufficient quality to stay there, because their limitations manifest themselves over time. I think this is what's happened with Davies, it's not that he's got worse, just that the more you see of him the more you see what he can't do.
This isn't just an Everton issue, the lower leagues are littered with players who had their moment in the sun as youngsters. Our lovable neighbours had players like Spearing and Wisdom who were regulars before dropping out of top flight football, and I remember United often using players like Blackett, Borthwick-Jackson and a couple of others 3 or 4 years ago, who have now slid down the leagues. Anyone remember when Macheda was the name on everyone's lips? These players haven't really stalled I don't think, they were used to plug squad gaps because they were capable enough, but they don't have a high enough ceiling to become fixtures in the side.
I think it's also worth pointing out that just being exposed to top level football doesn't in itself improve you as a player. If you have the ability to start with, then you can improve by getting used to the speed and strength of better players, and learning from the best. If you're not good enough though, it doesn't matter how many games you play, you'll never get there. That's why clubs cull 90% of their youth intakes, because they know that they can't just make anyone a top player simply by playing them.
Thats the point im making, we supposedly have all these great youth teams but the only player who was genuine quality was Rooney. Barkley hasnt developed for years, Rodwell obviously didnt either, although injuries didnt help. Davies doesnt look much either.
The amount of money saved by producing a 'top' player now is astronomical compared to years ago.
Sinski
Player Valuation: £6m
I think the issues of players stalling has a lot to do with the mental side of the game. Some players just will just find that step up too difficult even though they may have the talent. Sometimes it is a physical thing as some guys develop a lot earlier physically so look good playing against kids their own age but when they step up to mens football they lose that point of difference. It also happens that players do not look like they will make it but suddenly something clicks for them and they will improve and become really good players. I have seen that in a few different sports.
As an Australian I follow the AFL and it always amazes that some highly rated youth players get to the seniors and their game just falls apart but then there are others that no-one rates but a club will take a chance on and they become a really good player who will be around for a long time.
toffeejack
Player Valuation: £100m
This is the main difference between us and the RS, as there's have turned World class or close to, when ours haven't.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
There was a moment with us and them under Rodgers Martinez and the two squads were similar. In fairness they have started spending a huge amount more in that time too, but their players kicked on.
I remember having a debate who was better out of Deulofeu an Coutinho. There was a time they were very close.
That's LFCs huge advantage over us, their young players hit full potential, ours often regress.
BillLovesRoo
Player Valuation: £6m
This is something that i suppose does need looking at, our acadamy over recent years have been very good at building some of the best teams at youth level, problem is, that is what they are.......teams.
Its all good and well saying, this group won the u18s league, the u23s league, but the team in a way comes before the individual, now while that is fairly honourible, it dosent really promote individualism or shows off anyone players particular talents, which is maybe what is needed to produce players who will excell in the first team.
I think alot of that is maybe down to Unsworth
Ring master
Player Valuation: £90m
Rollo Tomassi
Player Valuation: £15m
messymascot
Player Valuation: £35m
Hopefully give us the ball playing centre back we are looking for. Needs time to develop but if he's as good as we think another player we will have saved on.