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Everton Youth Teams Thread

Leighton Baines quote after the game: “We just needed to find a balance early on. We were playing a little bit too direct, too soon or too often which meant spaces on a big pitch, which makes you vulnerable in transition moments. I think we found a better balance between that and having control in the second half, whilst having some urgency and variety to the game."

I had to laugh when I read that - could there be any greater contrast to Dyche's predictable, repetitive and tedious tactical approach?
 
Lanolin said:
It's a lot easier for Liverpool because they've got the quality to carry people. The chances of a young lad coming on and costing you the game are almost nil when you're Liverpool and 2 up at Anfield with the other players they have, it's not the same here where young players are going to be expected to perform as a functional part of the team otherwise the whole thing can totally unravel.

That wasn't really my point though, I've got no interest in turning this into yet another 'Dyche and Thelwell are the pits' thread. It's just this idea that it's easy for young players to come in and play and 'they can't be any worse'. They absolutely can. I totally get that we all want them to succeed and it can be annoying seeing the same faces underperforming, but it doesn't follow that throwing a kid in at the deep end is going to make things better. People wanted Lewis Warrington playing games 2 years ago and now he's struggled to get games at both Plymouth and Leyton Orient. It was totally unfathomable how Dobbin wasn't playing, only he's also not playing at a midtable Championship side now. Almost like it's not some mad Everton thing where we won't give people a chance but actually just a reflection of the ability of the players.

It's a huge step up, hopefully Armstrong will make it but it's ridiculous to make out like aiming to take the place of a current Belgian international with a £40m release clause isn't a high bar to be aiming for when you're a kid fresh out of school, and it totally devalues the achievements of these lads when people suggest stuff like that.
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I was just using Liverpool as an example but there's tons of examples. Liverpool used their in trophy deciders from the start like Danns and Bradley which is arguably just as high pressure but you've got Newcastle with Miley, Hinshelwood at Brighton, Dibling at Saints. You can put a kid in and not suffer relative to the team. We led by 3 goals against Wolves for 40 mins, 4 for 20 mins and made 4 other subs at 4-0 before finally turning to Armstrong with 120 seconds left. That's poor imo. Really poor. There's no real excuse or rationale for it.

I agree with you that most times it's made out to be a hell of a lot easier than it is to break through but they never will if never given chances. Just because Dobbin or Warrington had to go down a level doesn't mean all youngsters are bad, in the same way just because Lookman and Robinson have succeeded we should be giving them all 90 mins every week. Your baseline there is using Mangala who is our best centre mid, no one expects him to take his job.
 
Regarding Armstrong, come the summer we'll have:

Out of Contract
Gana 36 in September
Doucoure 32 in Jan
Mangala loan player

1 Year remaining
Garner

2 Years remaining
Iroegbunam
Armstrong


With a new manager and him being 18 in January it may be that he takes another step up to becoming at least a regular rotation option.
 
Thought Dyche Walker said the academy was crap and full of garbage players, not so long ago…..

Well done to Bainsey and the boys for a good win, hope they bring it home and continue to do well.

Would love to see a few more of these lads getting first team opportunities and minutes in the future.
 

EFC_FRANCIS said:
I was just using Liverpool as an example but there's tons of examples. Liverpool used their in trophy deciders from the start like Danns and Bradley which is arguably just as high pressure but you've got Newcastle with Miley, Hinshelwood at Brighton, Dibling at Saints. You can put a kid in and not suffer relative to the team. We led by 3 goals against Wolves for 40 mins, 4 for 20 mins and made 4 other subs at 4-0 before finally turning to Armstrong with 120 seconds left. That's poor imo. Really poor. There's no real excuse or rationale for it.

I agree with you that most times it's made out to be a hell of a lot easier than it is to break through but they never will if never given chances. Just because Dobbin or Warrington had to go down a level doesn't mean all youngsters are bad, in the same way just because Lookman and Robinson have succeeded we should be giving them all 90 mins every week. Your baseline there is using Mangala who is our best centre mid, no one expects him to take his job.
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I think that's a slightly different thing though. If Armstrong is genuinely good enough to be playing from the start like some of those others are then of course I agree, get him in. My point is just that it's perfectly understandable if he's not that good yet. He's 17. The sub against Wolves I take your point but it's not really the end of the world if he's not getting that extra 20 minutes because...he's 17. It would have been nice to see him have a bit longer but he's probably happy to have got on the pitch and maybe picked up an appearance bonus, and maybe those little cameos will help him to get rid of nerves etc when we ask him to play a more meaningful part I don't know. Again though, that's all by the by really because I'm not talking about Dyche's handling of him I'm just talking about young players in general and how instead of being happy that we have a 17 year old deemed good enough to be part of the squad we have to turn it into a negative that he isn't actually starting ahead of senior players.

What I was trying to say is 'it's not a high bar' is just a daft way of looking at it, because it's completely removing the context. All of our midfielders are very good in the grand scheme of things, they just aren't necessarily that good in comparison to the very best in the world. Armstrong has done extremely well to force his way into the reckoning at his age. The example of Warrington and Dobbin wasn't to suggest they must all be rubbish, it's just a direct comparison - there were people in this thread saying they should be playing but the evidence of their careers so far suggests that was completely wrong, but instead of taking it on board and learning from it people just move on to the next one on the list and say the same about them instead.
 
Lanolin said:
It's a lot easier for Liverpool because they've got the quality to carry people. The chances of a young lad coming on and costing you the game are almost nil when you're Liverpool and 2 up at Anfield with the other players they have, it's not the same here where young players are going to be expected to perform as a functional part of the team otherwise the whole thing can totally unravel.

That wasn't really my point though, I've got no interest in turning this into yet another 'Dyche and Thelwell are the pits' thread. It's just this idea that it's easy for young players to come in and play and 'they can't be any worse'. They absolutely can. I totally get that we all want them to succeed and it can be annoying seeing the same faces underperforming, but it doesn't follow that throwing a kid in at the deep end is going to make things better. People wanted Lewis Warrington playing games 2 years ago and now he's struggled to get games at both Plymouth and Leyton Orient. It was totally unfathomable how Dobbin wasn't playing, only he's also not playing at a midtable Championship side now. Almost like it's not some mad Everton thing where we won't give people a chance but actually just a reflection of the ability of the players.

It's a huge step up, hopefully Armstrong will make it but it's ridiculous to make out like aiming to take the place of a current Belgian international with a £40m release clause isn't a high bar to be aiming for when you're a kid fresh out of school, and it totally devalues the achievements of these lads when people suggest stuff like that. It's also worth noting that while him coming for 5 minutes doesn't necessarily have any value to you, it probably does to him which you'd have to say is maybe a bit more important all things considered.
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That argument about Liverpool can cut both ways. People often argue that you shouldn't be trying to play young 17-year-olds as they aren't on the same level as international players and can't cope with pressure when you're trying to win the league or qualify for the Champions League. We had similar arguments about this when Moyes wouldn't play Barclay. I think the simple reality is that some managers are willing to trust and develop young players, and some managers aren't willing to do this.
 
I've no idea how things work at Everton or most clubs with regards to set up and style in the the different age categories.

You obviously get famous examples like Ajax and Barça (possibly City) where all the different age categories have the same tactical set up and coaching style. They tend to be very systematic in their approach. This must make it easier for young players to move up a level. Knowing where your team mates are going to be and when they're going to make runs when your in possession and the shape they'll hold out of possession.

It also allows for players who aren't neccessarily top notch to function as cog in a well oiled machine.
 

Zatara said:
Look at the extensive experience Dyche has given to...

Harrison Armstrong

Roman Dixon

I'm intrigued by your pointing to Armstrong not "being able to make an impression in appearances". What kind of impression would you expect him to have made in those extremely limited minutes?

There is absolutely and categorically no evidence, as in zero to suggest Dyche can manage young players. Nothing to suggest he can coach them either.

Of one thing I can be certain and that is the two others you mention in Clarke and Graham would benefit from a different manager to Sean Dyche if they are to have a hope of making the impact which the signs are pointing towards.

He's done his upmost NOT to use young players unless there is no alternative.
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…I might be wrong but didn’t he start in the League Cup? As always with cameo appearances, I look for a ‘that’ll do me’ moment. Just one little thing that makes me think we have a player here.

Regardless, chuffed he was outstanding last night and I’m sure it won’t be long before he struts his stuff at top level.
 
John from Bootle said:
Yeah, he's already made a big leap. What he needs to do is make the next leaps. It's fanciful to think he's close to the standard of about 5 of our centre mids at this point in his career.
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Its a really tough process, each leap is a big one and if you stagnate at just one, you pretty much drop a level.

E.g. Tom Davies got through the training with the squad phase, the getting game time phase, but he just didn't step into that cementing down his own place phase.
 

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