Financial Fair Play investigation

[maccavennie]

Erm, at the risk of getting flak from all sides, is there any chance of someone actually discussing the FFP investigation oin here? If you guys just want to abuse and slag each other off, then that's what the Current Affairs forum is traditionally for.

Nothing to discuss mate as it won't be until October a decision is made

 

[Dad watched Dixie]

In your previous message you literally did say I defended him. I haven't! No-one has defended his tweet.

Do you condemn his tweet, yes or no?

@roydo @davek

 

[Tom Hughes]

Does it matter? The result was that Maguire started carrying foul in the public domain and embarked on his vendetta against Everton...which hopefully ended once and for all with his comments yesterday.

Of course it matters what the club pulled him up on. You're claiming that this fella has a personal vendetta because of it, and you were in agreement with the club on that score.
You tagged me into your post because of our previous conversation on precisely that. So it has everything to do with that original argument, otherwise why tag me? The fact is, the club reaction and attempt to refute his analysis was classic Kenwright, calling in a few media mates trying to silence the club's critics. At no point where the club able to actually refute anything he said, nor bring any libel or any other legal case against him. Like the phantom headlocker, the club's claims vapourised into the nonsense that they were, and yet you still fell for it!

Fast forward to the weekend, and one highly distasteful tweet later reaffirms your belief that he was wrong in his assessment of our club's parlous financial state, and you're now fully vindicated. One problem with that theory is that the commission is still standing and the evidence for his claims about our predicament is all still there.

 

[davek]

Of course it matters what the club pulled him up on. You're claiming that this fella has a personal vendetta because of it, and you were in agreement with the club on that score.
You tagged me into your post because of our previous conversation on precisely that. So it has everything to do with that original argument, otherwise why tag me? The fact is, the club reaction and attempt to refute his analysis was classic Kenwright, calling in a few media mates trying to silence the club's critics. At no point where the club able to actually refute anything he said, nor bring any libel or any other legal case against him. Like the phantom headlocker, the club's claims vapourised into the nonsense that they were, and yet you still fell for it!

Fast forward to the weekend, and one highly distasteful tweet later reaffirms your belief that he was wrong in his assessment of our club's parlous financial state, and you're now fully vindicated. One problem with that theory is that the commission is still standing and the evidence for his claims about our predicament is all still there.

I'm afraid you'll have to elaborate on that. When did this happen precisely? I cant remember any media attacks on Maguire...perhaps you have evidence to back this up apart from Maguire's own dramatic statement that he was called up by club officials and disrupting his evening plans. I'll be interested to hear this extra evidence you have on Kenwright's media mates getting involved. Who were they and when did it happen and what source do you have for that?

As for that tweet of his: how could it not throw light on Maguire's hysterical character and thereby underline my belief that he's more a social media entertainer than a serious industry figure? I'd say it backs my assessment of him up 100% and undermines your belief in him.

 

[Tom Hughes]

I'm afraid you'll have to elaborate on that. When did this happen precisely? I cant remember any media attacks on Maguire...perhaps you have evidence to back this up apart from Maguire's own dramatic statement that he was called up by club officials and disrupting his evening plans. I'll be interested to hear this extra evidence you have on Kenwright's media mates getting involved. Who were they and when did it happen and what source do you have for that?

As for that tweet of his: how could it not throw light on Maguire's hysterical character and thereby underline my belief that he's more a social media entertainer than a serious industry figure? I'd say it backs my assessment of him up 100% and undermines your belief in him.

The fact that you're answering my question with another question (and a question of semantics at that), illustrates the paucity of your argument. I clearly said that it was classic Kenwright for the club to attempt to silence its critics. You fell for it.

My belief? Even a video of Maguire drowning puppies in full LFC kit, wouldn't undermine his original assessment of Everton's predicament that provoke the club's ire. The assessment which you also took umbrage with. The assessment which you are unable to reference and like the club, are completely unable to refute.

Your argument is entirely fallacious. You are shooting the messenger, and essentially insisting only Dave K and/or Evertonians can be critical of EFC. For years we were screaming for investigative analysts/journalism to expose the club's/Kenwright's ruinous chairmanship. We've had to wait till the wheels almost well and truly fell off and they're almost screwing the coffin lid down..... but you still want to shut them up!?

 

[davek]

The fact that you're answering my question with another question (and a question of semantics at that), illustrates the paucity of your argument. I clearly said that it was classic Kenwright for the club to attempt to silence its critics. You fell for it.

My belief? Even a video of Maguire drowning puppies in full LFC kit, wouldn't undermine his original assessment of Everton's predicament that provoke the club's ire. The assessment which you also took umbrage with. The assessment which you are unable to reference and like the club, are completely unable to refute.

Your argument is entirely fallacious. You are shooting the messenger, and essentially insisting only Dave K and/or Evertonians can be critical of EFC. For years we were screaming for investigative analysts/journalism to expose the club's/Kenwright's ruinous chairmanship. We've had to wait till the wheels almost well and truly fell off and they're almost screwing the coffin lid down..... but you still want to shut them up!?

Nice attempt at deflection.

It didn't work.

Let me put this to you again and see if you can address it this time:

You claimed that "The fact is, the club reaction and attempt to refute his analysis was classic Kenwright, calling in a few media mates trying to silence the club's critics."

I asked you to elaborate on that claim of Kenwright-friendly media attacks on Maguire but you've just given me a load of guff that it took you two days to cobble together because you know those media attacks on Maguire aren't there for you to provide. Why on earth did you claim that as 'fact' when it so obviously isn't a fact?

As for shooting the messenger because he's providing anti-board analysis: that's never been a problem for me from anyone who does it. I'm a long standing critic of Kenwright and Moshiri, so I have no axe to grind with him on that.

But let's look at your 'expert's' form on this shall we. He stated initially that he'd heard from his sources that the club falling foul of FFP was down to a player purchase which took them outside of the guidance that Everton were being given by the PL. From all accounts recently however the problem appears to be related to a stadium related issue concerning taxation. So just how qualified is this feller to be making his pronouncements? It all goes back to my suggestion that he's a social media entertainer looking for clicks for his website and now buyers of his book. Just because someone works in academia doesn't mean they cant be a chancer. He proved that the other day when he took the piss out of Everton on the pitch and it backfired terribly on him requiring a craven apology to stop it going further (by the way, if he'd said that about Liverpool he would now be out of a job and very possibly in police protection). The feller is damaged goods now...if he has an audience listening to him about Everton financial affairs I dont think too many will be Evertonians...apart from you.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Nice attempt at deflection.

It didn't work.

Let me put this to you again and see if you can address it this time:

You claimed that "The fact is, the club reaction and attempt to refute his analysis was classic Kenwright, calling in a few media mates trying to silence the club's critics."

I asked you to elaborate on that claim of Kenwright-friendly media attacks on Maguire but you've just given me a load of guff that it took you two days to cobble together because you know those media attacks on Maguire aren't there for you to provide. Why on earth did you claim that as 'fact' when it so obviously isn't a fact?

As for shooting the messenger because he's providing anti-board analysis: that's never been a problem for me from anyone who does it. I'm a long standing critic of Kenwright and Moshiri, so I have no axe to grind with him on that.

But let's look at your 'expert's' form on this shall we. He stated initially that he'd heard from his sources that the club falling foul of FFP was down to a player purchase which took them outside of the guidance that Everton were being given by the PL. From all accounts recently however the problem appears to be related to a stadium related issue concerning taxation. So just how qualified is this feller to be making his pronouncements? It all goes back to my suggestion that he's a social media entertainer looking for clicks for his website and now buyers of his book. Just because someone works in academia doesn't mean they cant be a chancer. He proved that the other day when he took the piss out of Everton on the pitch and it backfired terribly on him requiring a craven apology to stop it going further (by the way, if he'd said that about Liverpool he would now be out of a job and very possibly in police protection). The feller is damaged goods now...if he has an audience listening to him about Everton financial affairs I dont think too many will be Evertonians...apart from you.

Firstly, I don't have time to come on here every day and it probably took me 10mins to reply when I did.

Hardly deflection, Kenwright's had the media tied up for years using precisely those tactics.

You seem to be confusing FFP with P&S. They overlap but are not the same thing. FFP generally does not include stadium investment, P&S can do. In the absence of club transparency, he was perfectly entitled to speculate about possible specific causes of our call in and his assessment included the context of our previous financial results including the nature of secured investment and other loans. Hence the reason why the club have never brought any action against him, and he hasn't had to retract anything.

 

[davek]

Firstly, I don't have time to come on here every day and it probably took me 10mins to reply when I did.

Hardly deflection, Kenwright's had the media tied up for years using precisely those tactics.

Well I'm glad we cleared that up at least: you have no source to point to for the 'fact' there was a media led attack against Maguire. No single article or piece. Not a shred of evidence.

That inexactitude will rightly be picked up on - and you were called out on it.

You seem to be confusing FFP with P&S. They overlap but are not the same thing. FFP generally does not include stadium investment, P&S can do. In the absence of club transparency, he was perfectly entitled to speculate about possible specific causes of our call in and his assessment included the context of our previous financial results including the nature of secured investment and other loans. Hence the reason why the club have never brought any action against him, and he hasn't had to retract anything.

Whether its FFP or P&S he had the perfect right as an expert to state that he had no concrete evidence to suggest what the charges Everton faced were. All he had to do was to give a range of possible outcomes that Everton could face based on previous cases that affected other football clubs. Unless you think speculation is the stock in trade of academic experts when they have zero specific evidence to observe?

But that's not the substantive issue here: his claiming that Everton had targeted him for unsolicited evening phone calls took his dealings with Everton's finances to another level. No serious commentator would reveal such conversations, if indeed they had taken place. He immediately became part of the story and a subject in it once he did that. And he hasn't stopped since. Having a dig at Everton and their use of black armbands has him falling foul of the code of conduct befitting a detached and objective observer. It was thoroughly unprofessional and reaffirmed that he has an axe to grind with Everton FC.

I doubt there's anyone out there who sees this Maguire feller as anything other than a deranged crank where Everton are concerned. Your misplaced loyalty to him does you no favours.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Well I'm glad we cleared that up at least: you have no source to point to for the 'fact' there was a media led attack against Maguire. No single article or piece. Not a shred of evidence.

That inexactitude will rightly be picked up on - and you were called out on it.




Whether its FFP or P&S he had the perfect right as an expert to state that he had no concrete evidence to suggest what the charges Everton faced were. All he had to do was to give a range of possible outcomes that Everton could face based on previous cases that affected other football clubs. Unless you think speculation is the stock in trade of academic experts when they have zero specific evidence to observe?

But that's not the substantive issue here: his claiming that Everton had targeted him for unsolicited evening phone calls took his dealings with Everton's finances to another level. No serious commentator would reveal such conversations, if indeed they had taken place. He immediately became part of the story and a subject in it once he did that. And he hasn't stopped since. Having a dig at Everton and their use of black armbands has him falling foul of the code of conduct befitting a detached and objective observer. It was thoroughly unprofessional and reaffirmed that he has an axe to grind with Everton FC.

I doubt there's anyone out there who sees this Maguire feller as anything other than a deranged crank where Everton are concerned. Your misplaced loyalty to him does you no favours.

I clearly said it was a fact that the club's attempt to silence a critic was classic Kenwright.... They attempted to pressure him, contacting him out of hours and on his private number (how do you think they got that, media connections perhaps?). As soon as he mentioned it, no further action was taken. Yet you're saying that he's in the wrong? That's all you need to know about your stance. The club are not being investigated because of Maguire!

I have no loyalty to him at all, so you need to stick to the facts and stop misrepresenting me. He has assessed and questioned aspects of the club's financial management for years, as he has done with dozens of other clubs and whole leagues, including many positive and as well as negative responses. If he's asked for an opinion, he is perfectly entitled to give it, because he's been asked specifically because of that background/expertise. If he gets it wrong and/or the club think it is libellous or damaging, then they can take action. Did they do that? No! Have they done it any time since? No! As ever, they tried to control the narrative. This time by having a quiet, off the record word. He squealed, and they shot back into their hole..... and haven't really come out since!

End of story....

 

[Walken]

great stuff this

 

[davek]

I clearly said it was a fact that the club's attempt to silence a critic was classic Kenwright.... They attempted to pressure him, contacting him out of hours and on his private number (how do you think they got that, media connections perhaps?). As soon as he mentioned it, no further action was taken. Yet you're saying that he's in the wrong? That's all you need to know about your stance. The club are not being investigated because of Maguire!

Unbelievable this. Just let it go. You're claiming stuff that just didn't happen, and if it did happen you have no proof of it. Stop digging on this, you're making a fool of yourself.

I have no loyalty to him at all, so you need to stick to the facts and stop misrepresenting me. He has assessed and questioned aspects of the club's financial management for years, as he has done with dozens of other clubs and whole leagues, including many positive and as well as negative responses. If he's asked for an opinion, he is perfectly entitled to give it, because he's been asked specifically because of that background/expertise. If he gets it wrong and/or the club think it is libellous or damaging, then they can take action. Did they do that? No! Have they done it any time since? No! As ever, they tried to control the narrative. This time by having a quiet, off the record word. He squealed, and they shot back into their hole..... and haven't really come out since!

End of story....

You're words do that. You've backed this character Maguire through thick and thin.

On the other issue: if he's asked for his opinion then he should have something to base that opinion on. But he didn't. His claim was that Everton faced a PL commission because of an unauthorised registration of a player - that was a rumour he'd heard. What serious analyst basis there understanding of an inquiry process on that?

He's on the same level as the Swiss Ramber: an empiricist who trawls for financial details dredged up from official and unofficial accounts and makes a stab at making sense of that hotch potch of 'facts'. Let's not give him any more credibility than that.

You know sometimes you can throw out the baby with the bathwater, and I think that's what you've done here. You're so angry at the club hierarchy that you seem willing to throw your hand in with any cowboy who comes along who's prepared to blackguard the whole organisation as long as it means embarrassment for the clowns who (mis)govern this club.

The owners aren't the club. You need to recognise that distinction and maybe you then wont excuse a shameful chancer like Kieran Maguire.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Unbelievable this. Just let it go. You're claiming stuff that just didn't happen, and if it did happen you have no proof of it. Stop digging on this, you're making a fool of yourself.



You're words do that. You've backed this character Maguire through thick and thin.

On the other issue: if he's asked for his opinion then he should have something to base that opinion on. But he didn't. His claim was that Everton faced a PL commission because of an unauthorised registration of a player - that was a rumour he'd heard. What serious analyst basis there understanding of an inquiry process on that?

He's on the same level as the Swiss Ramber: an empiricist who trawls for financial details dredged up from official and unofficial accounts and makes a stab at making sense of that hotch potch of 'facts'. Let's not give him any more credibility than that.

You know sometimes you can throw out the baby with the bathwater, and I think that's what you've done here. You're so angry at the club hierarchy that you seem willing to throw your hand in with any cowboy who comes along who's prepared to blackguard the whole organisation as long as it means embarrassment for the clowns who (mis)govern this club.

The owners aren't the club. You need to recognise that distinction and maybe you then wont excuse a shameful chancer like Kieran Maguire.

Again, don't have to dig at all. The proof is in what happened next. The club said and did NOTHING, then or since! The club is still facing the commission and have been financially hamstrung ever since. He has continued commentating on this and various other club's financial issues, without any sanction whatsoever.

QED

Nowhere else, and on no other subject have i backed him... so "thick and thin" and the rest is pure guff.

 

[davek]

Again, don't have to dig at all. The proof is in what happened next. The club said and did NOTHING, then or since! The club is still facing the commission and have been financially hamstrung ever since. He has continued commentating on this and various other club's financial issues, without any sanction whatsoever.

QED

Nowhere else, and on no other subject have i backed him... so "thick and thin" and the rest is pure guff.

I see you've dropped your insistence now that the club orchestrated a media campaign against Maguire.

At least that's some progress.

 

[Victus]

I do wonder if they're not putting much into the club as they know they messed up and we're going to get slammed.

 

[Exeter_Gently]

I do wonder if they're not putting much into the club as they know they messed up and we're going to get slammed.

I think as the saying goes "we're cutting our cloth accordingly"...but us fans our "touching our cloth accordingly".