Foreign Quota?

[Seamus Colemole]

you pay for them, the easy life in one bunk hiltons where human rights reign supreme. there are children and pensioners living in poverty, people on the streets, mental health care is so overwhelmed it simply cant cope, and you want full life sentances? sorry - not on my dime.

adequate severe punishment? lifetime in prison is severe?

The world is a [Poor language removed] up place. I fail to see how that justifies murder though.
A world so [Poor language removed] up you can apparently put a price on human life.
Do you think the death penalty will suddenly turn this government into people who actually give a [Poor language removed] and actually do soemthing to change the state of this country? I dont.

state execution is different from murder, state execution is a punishment, murder is the act or acts of a supposed human being operating outside of the law to the detriment of another or others.

saddam hussein - executed by the iraqis with the backing of the states and britain - murder OR adequate punishment for an individual that sanctioned genocide.

Doesnt matter what names you throw at me i'm not gonna change my stance. Im not gonan say i think Saddam Hussein should of been left in power or should be walking the streets.
Im not gonan say i think he should be in a 5 star hotel you think contitutes a prison these days.
Stick him in a hole for 23 hours a day feeding him bread and water.
But dont kill him because murder on any level is wrong.

i cant justify murder, i can justify state execution. i see a difference and see that proper punishment for an individual that callously breaks the law is a deterrent.

Hardly a deterent when theyve already broken the law is it? Have a look for crime rates in American states that have the death penalty.

you have the prisons near you, you have the released criminals live near you and your family, you pay for the supposed rehabilitation of serious criminals.

if you arent up to the last paragraph then i consider you very very selfish at best.
I dont get it? Are you saying any criminal who breaks the law should never be released?
Seems though you have more a problem with the whole system in this country. If you do then in many ways i agree with you. Serious criminals should not be released early due to overcrowding or good behavior or any dumb reason.
But i dont see killing them as a cheap easy option.
I dont see threatening them with death as a deterrent.
I do see a country that has gone down the shitter and needs sorting out.

The death penalty wont change that.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce there is no question that they are taking British jobs and I sincerely doubt that they are the benefit claimed to the economy, such statements IMO are far too glib and have no hard facts to support the alleged benefit and no one has attempted to quantify the cost of the immigrants.

I also object to the way Government just surrenders to immigrants, in my book they should not be allowed in if they cannot read, write and speak English and neither should marital partners have an automatic right to be citizens/residents. Eg if someone goes abroad to marry a citizen of another country it should be made clear they do not have autmatic right of entry but have to wait say 5 years. (Pakistanis figure largely in this)

Take the shop where Ghost's wife works. Now mostly Polish workers and no doubt on a lower wage. So is that decrease in the overheads reflected in lower retail cost. I do not think so, so where does the extra profit go, why to the owner of course. That is the real reason for taking on immigrants at the expense of our own people.

I also bet Bruce that where you live there is not a large immigrant or ethnic proportion.

I'm not making headway with the criminals thread so I'll stick with you Robert

The British jobs thing, well I don't have any stats to hand and can't really be arsed to look for them tonight. I did mention earlier in the thread however that poor, white people in Britain are doing incredibly badly in education leaving vast numbers poorly skilled and quite possibly lacking any motivation due to the ready availability of welfare support. Now I'll readily admit that this is no doubt the whole picture as things are rarely that black and white but I always think that whenever immigrants are critisised that it would be equally prudent to look at the wastrels cruising around under British passports. We've had 'free' state education for over 50 years now and yet we still have kids that couldn't give a monkeys and end up with nothing to show for some 12,000 + hours of 'free' tuition. Like I said, it is a generalisation as I'm sure it isn't this black and white but when people from abroad are willing to move to a foreign country to work and make the most of the opportunities that are so taken for granted by so many Brits I find it hard to look at anyone but the bums who waste those very same opportunities.

You're right that I don't live somewhere with a high ethnic population but we have plenty of white bums here. We also have I believe one of the lowest average wages in the country, so again it's not as simple as blaming immigration for all ills. I dislike bums and loafers, I couldn't care less where they come from or what colour they are, a bum is a bum and gets no respect from me.

 

[SuitsBlue]

The world is a [Poor language removed] up place. I fail to see how that justifies murder though.
A world so [Poor language removed] up you can apparently put a price on human life.
Do you think the death penalty will suddenly turn this government into people who actually give a [Poor language removed] and actually do soemthing to change the state of this country? I dont.
.
exactly, just because some murderer lives in a so called [Poor language removed] up world that doesnt justify his crimes or excuse him or her from adequate punishment.
a price on human life? thats a bit rich from you, murder or murders carry the price of time in prison. HA !
im not trying to turn any government people into individuals giving a [Poor language removed] or otherwise, i dont want convicted murderers, rapists and paedophiles on the streets free to pick their prey, im also not prepared to keep them in the lap of luxury whilst so many LAW ABIDING citizens go without.
.
Doesnt matter what names you throw at me i'm not gonna change my stance. Im not gonan say i think Saddam Hussein should of been left in power or should be walking the streets.
Im not gonan say i think he should be in a 5 star hotel you think contitutes a prison these days.
Stick him in a hole for 23 hours a day feeding him bread and water.
But dont kill him because murder on any level is wrong.
.
im not changing my stance, your inability to properly condemn serious criminals ironically condemns the rest of society to have to continually deal with the aftermath of their crimes. SHAME ON YOU.

sadly, 'human rights' (where were they when sarah payne was snatched?) means prisoners arent allowed to be kept in a hole for 23 hours a day and fed on bread and water, they arent even allowed to be made to work. currently prisoners have more rights and get better treatment that their victims and the victims families. FOR SHAME!
.
Hardly a deterent when theyve already broken the law is it? Have a look for crime rates in American states that have the death penalty.
.
dont give a [Poor language removed] about america, lets get our own house in order before we judge the social climate overseas.
.
I dont get it? Are you saying any criminal who breaks the law should never be released?
Seems though you have more a problem with the whole system in this country. If you do then in many ways i agree with you. Serious criminals should not be released early due to overcrowding or good behavior or any dumb reason.
But i dont see killing them as a cheap easy option.
I dont see threatening them with death as a deterrent.
I do see a country that has gone down the shitter and needs sorting out.
.
your the one talking full life prison sentances.
the system is grossly imbalanced, but real change has to happen somewhere and state enforced responsibility serious criminals is a fine start.
I see the likes of hindley, bradey, sutcliffe, whiting, cant find his name but the surviving terrorist murderer from the 1980 iranian embassy siege - should have all been executed as soon as judicially possible. cheap and simple. no media campaigns, no further torment for the victims and the families.
If the death penalty puts even a seed of doubt into the mind of one criminal then its fully worth it, because the lack of punishment now means its a free for all on the streets and no consequences means impunity for the lives of the law abiding.

The death penalty wont change that.

proper consequences, not a lifetime on the tax payer under the watch of guards and more rights than their victims.

Its time to make the criminals fear instead of the current regime where the criminal is the victim, the criminals victim is inconsequential and the tax payer pays through the nose.

An abomination.

tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime - remember that? its time to get tough on criminals.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Did anyone read the bit where 2/3 of murders are convicted by people known to the victim? Or that most of those are crimes of passion rather than well planned events? Or even that the most at risk group of murder are the under 1's?

Probably easier to sit in judgement and assume that all murderers are akin to those few that make the headlines. Cmon Suits, the media don't exist to tell the truth, they exist to sell papers and to get you viewing their broadcasts. Bad news sells, it pays for them to paint horrific pictures of the world turning to crap. Think through the consequences a little of this culture of fear that it's breeding. The paedo on every corner crap that some papers peddle will drive men from having any contact with kids if we're not careful. Who would coach a kids sports team if the finger of suspicion is always pointed? Or a scouts group? Or anything else. If a young kid was stood alone crying in a shopping centre, how many blokes do you think would be brave enough to help out?

It's wrong, it's [Poor language removed] wrong. If it's not fear of paedos, it's fear of immigrants or fear of muslims. The media is whipping up such a frenzy on issues and it's so very divisive to society. Treat people as individuals and put the broad brush away.

 

[SuitsBlue]

murder under age 1, murder age over 101, it makes no difference, a life is taken, if an individual is capable of losing their control and reason due to 'passion' what is to stop it happening again, and again, and again?

attempted murderers would get the chair also.

as for the blanket of fear - hows about its used to scare criminals and would be criminals instead of by jerk off red tops and the daily hate to pander to popular belief/opinion.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Where is the evidence that the death penalty works? Is murder non-existant in America?

You mention 'crimes of passion' as though it's that simple. Tell me, you go home tonight and your wife/gf is in bed with the milkman. Are you telling me that you'd stand there calmly discussing the situation? I'm not saying that it's inevitable such a situation ends in murder, just that things are rarely as black and white as you seem to suggest.

 

[SuitsBlue]

the occupation of the 'grey' zone is what allows the half arsed instances where watered down sentances get doled out to serious criminals.

black and white - life and death - right and wrong.

if an individual purposefully kills another, then they forfeit their right to anything.

excuses, reasons, call it what you want - that life cant be brought back and there is still the killer to deal with.

"tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"... Time to get tough on criminals.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

the occupation of the 'grey' zone is what allows the half arsed instances where watered down sentances get doled out to serious criminals.

black and white - life and death - right and wrong.

if an individual purposefully kills another, then they forfeit their right to anything.

excuses, reasons, call it what you want - that life cant be brought back and there is still the killer to deal with.

"tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"... Time to get tough on criminals.

I cant be arsed to reply to your last post before this one because its full of crap, but i'll make an exception for this bit :

your inability to properly condemn serious criminals ironically condemns the rest of society to have to continually deal with the aftermath of their crimes. SHAME ON YOU.

And my response to that is : [Poor language removed] off. I'm sorry to resort to that, i was trying to have a serious debate with you but if you can pretty much ignore everything ive said in my posts then thats all i can say to such a bullshit statement.

You seem to of got it in your head that because i dont agree with the death penalty i want criminals walking the streets being [Poor language removed] treated like royalty.

Have i not made it clear that i agree with you in many ways about the awful state this country is in?
Yet because i dont believe in murder i think everything is fine and i want my children to be raped by paedophiles free to walk the street? Bullshit.

I'd hate to live in a world where being locked in a cell to rot for the rest of your life for 23 hours a day is not properly condemning them for their crimes, but apparently you already do.

if an individual purposefully kills another, then they forfeit their right to anything.

So what is tying someone down and injecting lethal poison into their veins if not purposefully killing someone then?

excuses, reasons, call it what you want - that life cant be brought back and there is still the killer to deal with.

Yeah, call the detah penalty what you want but you cant bring back the innocent lives lost at its hands.

Considering you just contradicted your own argument their twice and pissed me off i guess thats all i need to say on this subject.

 

[SuitsBlue]

i have had a couple of beers this evening and cant now do myself adequate justice with regards this subject, to try would be to undermine my posts so far.

this will be continued, take that to the bank.

 

[SuitsBlue]

I cant be arsed to reply to your last post before this one because its full of crap, but i'll make an exception for this bit :


i can say something you have written is 'full of crap' - well done.


And my response to that is : [Poor language removed] off. I'm sorry to resort to that, i was trying to have a serious debate with you but if you can pretty much ignore everything ive said in my posts then thats all i can say to such a bullshit statement.

i'll happily [Poor language removed] off from keeping serious criminals at all, you want to pay to keep some murderer in prison for seventy years, then your welcome too, i'd rather pay my taxes towards health care and education - and helping families with children and pensioners that havnt sinned out of poverty.

YOU [Poor language removed] PAY !

You seem to of got it in your head that because i dont agree with the death penalty i want criminals walking the streets being [Poor language removed] treated like royalty.

i cant speak for who has what in who's head, i dont know how YOU can.

YOU PAY TO KEEP SERIOUS CRIMINALS ! i want my money to help those that deserve it.

Have i not made it clear that i agree with you in many ways about the awful state this country is in?
Yet because i dont believe in murder i think everything is fine and i want my children to be raped by paedophiles free to walk the street? Bullshit.

you call it murder, i call it state execution - and in such an ironic paragraph.

YOU PAY TO KEEP THEM ! i'd like help those that deserve it than keep serious criminals.

I'd hate to live in a world where being locked in a cell to rot for the rest of your life for 23 hours a day is not properly condemning them for their crimes, but apparently you already do.

you missed the point, 23 hours a day doesnt happen, and who pays to keep such scum?

So what is tying someone down and injecting lethal poison into their veins if not purposefully killing someone then?

its state execution of something that by its actions has forfeit the right to the treatment the law abiding rely upon.

Yeah, call the detah penalty what you want but you cant bring back the innocent lives lost at its hands.

needs of the many vs the needs of the few - DNA can convict with a certainty of 99.99% - thats good enough for me. (if an innocent was judged under false testimony then the bearers of false witness receive the punishment their victim was dealt)

Considering you just contradicted your own argument their twice and pissed me off i guess thats all i need to say on this subject.

you pissed yourself off.

and i contradicted nothing.

you keep them, you be around them whilst they are kept, i choose to go and help people that deserve help, not cruel malicious law breakers that respect no one and no thing.

SHAME ON YOU !

 

[SuitsBlue]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7125485.stm

stabbed in the back and the head. 14 years old.

the individuals responsible have forfeit the right to decent humane treatment.

plenty of deserving law abiding people on the organ donor waiting list.

 

[monty]

I have read this thread with interest and I think Suits is right concerning the death penalty, but not as right as Bruce and DRG.

I agreed with the death penalty for many years until more and more cases of police evidence tampering, false prosecution and the like came to light. Based on Suits scenario Steffan Zisko would not have spent 16 years behind bars for an evil crime he never committed, he'd have been strung up. I remember seeing the screaming mob in Bootle after Venables and his mate, two 10 year olds guilty of the most wicked crime certainly but also victims themselves of parents who did not care about them, let them roam the streets. That mob consisted of big brave blokes all vowing that they'd string 10 year olds up or stoning them to death if they could get inside the Paddy wagon, the majority of that mob would have been parents, the type who would never have a clue where their own kids where or what they were doing, [Poor language removed] hero's everyone of that lynch mob.

Too many mistakes get made, once dead you can never make that right. Incidentally it also gives me great pleasure when Ian Brady tries to get the judiciary to give him permission to starve to death, feed him until he's a 100, I hope the spirits of those kiddies visit him each night ensuring that his living hell is perpetuated for as long as possible, you'd never have got that if he'd have swung as so many wanted.

 

[SuitsBlue]

I have read this thread with interest and I think Suits is right concerning the death penalty, but not as right as Bruce and DRG.

im asking - pick a side, condemn or continue to keep the worst in the life of riley.

I agreed with the death penalty for many years until more and more cases of police evidence tampering,

in cases of police tampering where their victims were punished, those same police are punished in the same manner as their victims.

false prosecution and the like came to light. Based on Suits scenario Steffan Zisko would not have spent 16 years behind bars for an evil crime he never committed, he'd have been strung up.

then the corrupt police would have been strung up - powerful message to would be bent coppers of tomorrow. certainly more of a signal than full pension and the costa del sol.

I remember seeing the screaming mob in Bootle after Venables and his mate, two 10 year olds guilty of the most wicked crime certainly but also victims themselves of parents who did not care about them, let them roam the streets. That mob consisted of big brave blokes all vowing that they'd string 10 year olds up or stoning them to death if they could get inside the Paddy wagon, the majority of that mob would have been parents, the type who would never have a clue where their own kids where or what they were doing, [Poor language removed] hero's everyone of that lynch mob.

i'd have executed them, they knew what they did, they tried to hise it, why do they suddenly deserve private education and new lives abroad for themselves and their family for torturing and executing a toddler?

Too many mistakes get made, once dead you can never make that right. Incidentally it also gives me great pleasure when Ian Brady tries to get the judiciary to give him permission to starve to death, feed him until he's a 100, I hope the spirits of those kiddies visit him each night ensuring that his living hell is perpetuated for as long as possible, you'd never have got that if he'd have swung as so many wanted.

it costs money to keep ian brady, it costs money to allow him to have endless days in court where juducial time is spent on such a callous and cruel individual.

bulger killers - two impoverished pre-teens whos parents didnt care or raise them properly but who also benefited from that most heinous crime.

isnt it backward where law breakers get access to more resources and care than the law abiding?

damilola taylor, so poor kid stabbed to death with a glass bottle, died in a flight of stairs, some kid on his own, executed by two brothers. impoverished area remember.

8 year old victoria climbie, tortured over months till she could take no further punishment and died - what happened to her killers? nothing - 10 years, kiss my arse if thats justice.

victims so easily forgotten, murderers so readily pampered. its disgusting, and very few care enough to take on the responsibility of calling wrong 'wrong'.