2022/23 Frank Lampard

[BlueToff]

E

Gray for example is a 1 in 3ish player in this terrible set up. In a better one you might get him to 1 in 2.5. We've seen Dominic Calvert-Lewin and Maupay both hit double digits. Gordon is a promising player who has stagnated. McNeil is bad but also playing with zero direction. I don't expect it to suddenly be Man City but we really don't think better management can turn this collection into something capable of just 1 goal per game on average?

I see no example of that across Gray's career, though?

DCL yes. But again, the system has to be geared towards creating chances he can put away. The goal he scored v Palace in October isn't the typical chance you want to be creating for Dom. It's the one that was disallowed v Utd you need to be creating for him. And to do that consistently you need better players than the ones we have. Tons of time Gordon has got to the byline and then failed to deliver that final ball. Coaching only gets you so far - you need to do that last bit yourself - practice, practice and when it comes have the composure.

Gray has that talent, but his decision-making lets him down.

Iwobi for me is all energy. He's not a slick playmaker in the classic mould but he'll fire in a good pass out of a tricky situation or manage to create space with a dribble or a run. Then he'll also do that thing where he for some reason hits the ball straight at a defender that's two yards in front of him instead of just keeping hold of it. Erratic.

The only thing McNeil has is a decent cross and shot. Yet he's always hesitant to do either. And we've been looking to cross a lot more in recent games so that's not just tactical.

Maupay fits in a system where you get a lot of players around him and buzzing into the area. He also missed a ton of chances at Brighton. He's fine as a different style of striker but when you're switching between him and DCL it's just dumb.

 

[TheBigIguana]

And before that?

Iwobi was crap in his first few seasons with us, largely bar the odd game. Not saying he didn't work hard, not saying he wasn't at times played out of position. but he was crap.

Gordon - failed on loan at Preston.

Gray - Rodgers, a much better attacking coach than anyone we've had since Ancelotti left (and maybe even better than Carlo in that specific season), couldn't get it to click for him. Went to the Bundesliga, the perfect league for his style of player, and he blew hot and cold there.

McNeil - has never played in an attacking set up and is actually a one-footed man who, and I've nicked this from one of the fan channels, can't remember which one, 'redefines one-paced', he's that sluggish at times.

Dominic Calvert-Lewin - thrived when Carlo told him to stay in central areas and we had quality around him in Richarlison, James, Digne etc.

I thought Gray was good before he came here. He's a player that needs a chance, unfortunately his chance has come with two horrendous managers. Some guys just don't get breaks.

Gordon wasn't good when he was 19 agreed.

Iwobi is pretty simple in that you play him inside left or central and he's somewhere between fine and good and as he moves right he gets worse and worse. The terrible manager has once again moved him to a mostly right side role.

 

[BlueToff]

I thought Gray was good before he came here. He's a player that needs a chance, unfortunately his chance has come with two horrendous managers. Some guys just don't get breaks.

Gordon wasn't good when he was 19 agreed.

Iwobi is pretty simple in that you play him inside left or central and he's somewhere between fine and good and as he moves right he gets worse and worse. The terrible manager has once again moved him to a mostly right side role.

He didn't get a look in at Leicester, though, at that time a team finishing in the top five and going far in Europe and Cups.

He's got talent, real talent, but he's never ever been able to deliver it consistently. There comes a time when that ultimately falls on the player.

Iwobi was crap plenty of times playing left side in Silva's narrow 4231 too. Let's drop this silly idea he's only ever been bad for us when playing right side, even though I fully agree he should play more to the left.

Also some of his best performances in an Everton shirt have madly come at RWB - Fulham and Burnley (A) in 20-21, for example.

 

[TheBigIguana]

He didn't get a look in at Leicester, though, at that time a team finishing in the top five and going far in Europe and Cups.

He's got talent, real talent, but he's never ever been able to deliver it consistently. There comes a time when that ultimately falls on the player.

Iwobi was crap plenty of times playing left side in Silva's narrow 4231 too. Let's drop this silly idea he's only ever been bad for us when playing right side, even though I fully agree he should play more to the left.

Also some of his best performances in an Everton shirt have madly come at RWB - Fulham and Burnley (A) in 20-21, for example.

It's not that Iwobi was never bad, it's that sometimes he's good and that's enough for us to permanently use someone in that role. I disagree that he was actually good in some of those RWB games. He had flashy moments but was largely negative.

I just don't subscribe to "x didn't play him so he's definitely not good." I'm not under any illusion that Gray is limited to probably like 7 goals and 5 assists but for us that would be a very positive return. I think the limiting factor right now for him is that we're playing so far away from opposing penalty areas as a result of terrible systems that he can't get touches in the areas where he'd have that impact.

Yeah he's inconsistent but that inconsistency can be fine if he is getting touches in the final third more often.

 

[BlueToff]

It's not that Iwobi was never bad, it's that sometimes he's good and that's enough for us to permanently use someone in that role. I disagree that he was actually good in some of those RWB games. He had flashy moments but was largely negative.

I just don't subscribe to "x didn't play him so he's definitely not good." I'm not under any illusion that Gray is limited to probably like 7 goals and 5 assists but for us that would be a very positive return. I think the limiting factor right now for him is that we're playing so far away from opposing penalty areas as a result of terrible systems that he can't get touches in the areas where he'd have that impact.

Yeah he's inconsistent but that inconsistency can be fine if he is getting touches in the final third more often.

That Fulham game he was brilliant and in the Burnley match the week after he was superb. Also Wolves (A) in Jan 2021, he played RM, and was again very good. But yes, he should be used in his best position, I don't argue with that.

It's not about 'x didn't play him'. It's about looking at Gray's career and simply realising he's never been able to turn the absolute class talent he has into consistent end product. He's a good player, but he's not the difference between a team being a relegation candidate or a team safely in mid-table. Jack Harrison is a decent player for Leeds, again not the difference between relegation candidate or being safely mid-table.

With Gray his best games for Everton have always come in counter-attacking games but also when he's basically got a free role. The only system that we can play that seems to get him that atm is 352 so that's what we have to go with. But again, with inconsistent players come inconsistent results.

 

[TheBigIguana]

That Fulham game he was brilliant and in the Burnley match the week after he was superb. Also Wolves (A) in Jan 2021, he played RM, and was again very good. But yes, he should be used in his best position, I don't argue with that.

It's not about 'x didn't play him'. It's about looking at Gray's career and simply realising he's never been able to turn the absolute class talent he has into consistent end product. He's a good player, but he's not the difference between a team being a relegation candidate or a team safely in mid-table. Jack Harrison is a decent player for Leeds, again not the difference between relegation candidate or being safely mid-table.

With Gray his best games for Everton have always come in counter-attacking games but also when he's basically got a free role. The only system that we can play that seems to get him that atm is 352 so that's what we have to go with. But again, with inconsistent players come inconsistent results.

What games have we played well in overall that weren't counter attacking?

My belief is 1. that Gray was always decent in the time he got and that the issue was the amount of time not his actual level and 2. he's more than solid enough for a team like ours but needs to be in a system that gives him a better chance. That's it. No player scores 10 goals in 500 minutes. The last two years have been his first getting consistent starts and they've been in the worst attacking set ups I personally have ever seen that weren't Dyche/Pulis type intentionally terrible efforts.

You're just not going to convince me the attacking players wouldn't have a better time if the bad manager was replaced by a less bad one.

 

[Simon Buttle]

What games have we played well in overall that weren't counter attacking?

My belief is 1. that Gray was always decent in the time he got and that the issue was the amount of time not his actual level and 2. he's more than solid enough for a team like ours but needs to be in a system that gives him a better chance. That's it. No player scores 10 goals in 500 minutes. The last two years have been his first getting consistent starts and they've been in the worst attacking set ups I personally have ever seen that weren't Dyche/Pulis type intentionally terrible efforts.

You're just not going to convince me the attacking players wouldn't have a better time if the bad manager was replaced by a less bad one.

You keep saying this yet I have never once seen you say how you would setup the team?

 

[Toff33Blues99]

I guess the board have decided going down is acceptable. Absolutely shameful behaviour to let a clearly out of his depth manager carry on despite the run of defeats and shocking tactics

 

[TheBigIguana]

You keep saying this yet I have never once seen you say how you would setup the team?

Let's first get out of the way that I am not qualified to set up the team.

The basic changes I'd make in attack are first Iwobi at LCM, second McNeil full time RW and third I'd have the wingers playing inside and the fullbacks holding the width as much as possible. You can't do all of this without fixing a bunch of other issues we have and that's why I'm not a manager but I really thing these three things would help immensely.

First Iwobi is much better on the left and much more positive. You get a decent creator in his best spot to create. He has to be there. On the second one I just think we need an inside presence on the right and Gordon and Gray can't do it so it has to be McNeil. And as bad as Dwight has been he's also never consistently played RW. It is going to have growing pains! There have been moments of encouragement imo and we should look to build on those not move him around in some fleeting attempt to get it to work now. It won't. It wasn't a smart signing but he's here and we need to do something to actually try to make it work.

And then the third thing matters because we need some players to actually be near the goal and our center forward. You can't have the wingers wide, the fullbacks also wide and the midfielders deeper and expect to threaten the goal.

 

[Fatality]

Superrrrrrrrr, Super Frank!

Isn't it fascinating how a song once celebrated is now considered sacrilege?

The only thing that changed was the interval of time and the events that took place between the past and the present.

This weeds' boss...

Its always the same with new managers. We even were meming some of the stuff Sam Allardyce was coming out with early days and saying 'he tells it like it is.' Roberto saying 'phenomenal' every 2 sentences was seen as a nice quirk and it would lovingly be repeated until it was turned into something infuriating.

It took a long ass time cause admittedly Frank is genuinely charming to not be arsed and even angry about his interviews. And that was his biggest attribute.

Perception, ay.

 

[BlueToff]

What games have we played well in overall that weren't counter attacking?

My belief is 1. that Gray was always decent in the time he got and that the issue was the amount of time not his actual level and 2. he's more than solid enough for a team like ours but needs to be in a system that gives him a better chance. That's it. No player scores 10 goals in 500 minutes. The last two years have been his first getting consistent starts and they've been in the worst attacking set ups I personally have ever seen that weren't Dyche/Pulis type intentionally terrible efforts.

You're just not going to convince me the attacking players wouldn't have a better time if the bad manager was replaced by a less bad one.

You're using one example - Gray - who I've already said is our best all-round attacking player?

Issue is we have nobody else. That's why we need players.

A manager that can get an extra 10% out of this squad still isn't getting them to midtable. But if that manager has a squad with a few more better players in it then hopefully they can do.

Not hard to get is it?

 

[TheBigIguana]

You're using one example - Gray - who I've already said is our best all-round attacking player?

Issue is we have nobody else. That's why we need players.

A manager that can get an extra 10% out of this squad still isn't getting them to midtable. But if that manager has a squad with a few more better players in it then hopefully they can do.

Not hard to get is it?

I didn't really think I needed to argue for why DCL is better than how he's looked.

Side note setting it so D. C. L. autocorrects to DCL but letting people type Lewin still is crazy.

 

[nsno-chris]

E

Gray for example is a 1 in 3ish player in this terrible set up. In a better one you might get him to 1 in 2.5. We've seen Dominic Calvert-Lewin and Maupay both hit double digits. Gordon is a promising player who has stagnated. McNeil is bad but also playing with zero direction. I don't expect it to suddenly be Man City but we really don't think better management can turn this collection into something capable of just 1 goal per game on average?

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

 

[BlueToff]

Let's first get out of the way that I am not qualified to set up the team.

The basic changes I'd make in attack are first Iwobi at LCM, second McNeil full time RW and third I'd have the wingers playing inside and the fullbacks holding the width as much as possible. You can't do all of this without fixing a bunch of other issues we have and that's why I'm not a manager but I really thing these three things would help immensely.

First Iwobi is much better on the left and much more positive. You get a decent creator in his best spot to create. He has to be there. On the second one I just think we need an inside presence on the right and Gordon and Gray can't do it so it has to be McNeil. And as bad as Dwight has been he's also never consistently played RW. It is going to have growing pains! There have been moments of encouragement imo and we should look to build on those not move him around in some fleeting attempt to get it to work now. It won't. It wasn't a smart signing but he's here and we need to do something to actually try to make it work.

And then the third thing matters because we need some players to actually be near the goal and our center forward. You can't have the wingers wide, the fullbacks also wide and the midfielders deeper and expect to threaten the goal.

Yet any time he's played remotely well for us has been on the left.

I have absolutely no idea what people see in McNeil to think he's a good RW. He's played there for us plenty and been crap. And all of his most dangerous moments for us, goals included, have come when on the left.

He might 'profile' as a half-decent right wing option but he's not actually very good at it in practice.

 

[BlueToff]

I didn't really think I needed to argue for why Dominic Calvert-Lewin is better than how he's looked.

I don't think he has looked particularly bad. He's not been fit and he's hardly been getting the kind of chances he thrives off when he has been fit, has he? He's a penalty box poacher and we've not got a good enough system or good enough players to get the ball into him. It doesn't help when he's always working his way back from fitness and when he's out of the team the alternative is Maupay who, through no fault of his own, is absolutely nothing like Calvert-Lewin.

Bloody hell man.