Heysal and Hillsborough disasters

[Nebbiolo]

A newspapers response (of which editors etc of the day have since left...), or nobody serving any worthwhile sentence for manslaughter for Heysel?

Which is why I said earlier, the word justice is more applicable for Heysel. Don't see why its still branded in relation to Hillsborough - what justice is there to get?

Quite. The official report was clear in blaming police for mishandling the affair, the poor design of the stadium (not enough turnstiles) as well as "aggravating factors" such as some fans being drunk. That's it, that's the story. The police mishandled the situation, the ground didn't have enough turnstiles and fans didn't realise when they were trying to get in, that people were being crushed up front.

No conspiracy, just a tragedy.

 

[davek]

The outstanding issue, as far as I can gather, is that there is one mother who still has her question as to why her son's death remains "unexplained". Anne Williams, the mother of victim, Kevin Williams, argues that the Coroner called all the deaths before 3-15pm on the day of the disaster, but her son had been resucitated by coppers and died at 4pm according to the two coppers themselves who helped him. They then changed their evidence from the one they originally submitted to fit in with the Coroners timing. Its not a moot point as the Coroner declared all the deaths immediate and accidental and a result of the initial crush when, if Mrs Williams case is right, a question mark would hang over that verdict as there's an argument to be made that police mishandling on the day put a cordon up around the ground making it almost impossible for medics to get to people like her son who stood a chance if they could have been given expert help. In that sense her son's case is questioning whether many more casualties can be categorised as accidental death.

I'm not sure how strong that case is or, rather, provable. I know she's calling for a public inquiry but after all this time anecdotal evidence would be seen as pretty unsound I'd imagine.

Of course, all this has pretty much nothing to do with the type of morbid celebrations being played out at the moment. I hae nothing but respect for the people like Anne Williams looking to get some closure on this tragedy. The rest outside the immediate family and close friends can **** right off.

 

[Nebbiolo]

The outstanding issue, as far as I can gather, is that there is one mother who still has her question as to why her son's death remains "unexplained". Anne Williams, the mother of victim, Kevin Williams, argues that the Coroner called all the deaths before 3-15pm on the day of the disaster, but her son had been resucitated by coppers and died at 4pm according to the two coppers themselves who helped him. They then changed their evidence from the one they originally submitted to fit in with the Coroners timing. Its not a moot point as the Coroner declared all the deaths immediate and accidental and a result of the initial crush when, if Mrs Williams case is right, a question mark would hang over that verdict as there's an argument to be made that police mishandling on the day put a cordon up around the ground making it almost impossible for medics to get to people like her son who stood a chance if they could have been given expert help. In that sense her son's case is questioning whether many more casualties can be categorised as accidental death.

I'm not sure how strong that case is or, rather, provable. I know she's calling for a public inquiry but after all this time anecdotal evidence would be seen as pretty unsound I'd imagine.

Of course, all this has pretty much nothing to do with the type of morbid celebrations being played out at the moment. I hae nothing but respect for the people like Anne Williams looking to get some closure on this tragedy. The rest outside the immediate family and close friends can **** right off.

Not nice at all. There is no reason to doubt that actions of the police did lead to more deaths. Conversely, I understand that a number of officers really did play the parts of heroes.

Facing facts, the police were bound to screw something like this up. The Taylor report made it clear that he apportioned much blame to them for their handling of the situation. To be fair to the individual police officers, they weren't prepared for what occurred. Just like the fans pushing to get in through the opened gates, the police would not have been fully aware of what was unfolding until it actually unfolded. There was poor judgment that day from both police officers and Liverpool supporters. Neither, I think, set out with the foggiest idea that their actions might lead to deaths.

Sometimes I think it is best to draw line under things. Unlike Heysal, Hillsborough wasn't the result of an evil, it was effectively a terrible accident. A number of bodies can be held culpable for the loss of life, but morally speaking, I think it's extremely hard to apportion the type of blame on people that can be apportioned on some characters that were at Heysal.

 

[davek]

Not nice at all. There is no reason to doubt that actions of the police did lead to more deaths. Conversely, I understand that a number of officers really did play the parts of heroes.

Facing facts, the police were bound to screw something like this up. The Taylor report made it clear that he apportioned much blame to them for their handling of the situation. To be fair to the individual police officers, they weren't prepared for what occurred. Just like the fans pushing to get in through the opened gates, the police would not have been fully aware of what was unfolding until it actually unfolded. There was poor judgment that day from both police officers and Liverpool supporters. Neither, I think, set out with the foggiest idea that their actions might lead to deaths.

Sometimes I think it is best to draw line under things. Unlike Heysal, Hillsborough wasn't the result of an evil, it was effectively a terrible accident. A number of bodies can be held culpable for the loss of life, but morally speaking, I think it's extremely hard to apportion the type of blame on people that can be apportioned on some characters that were at Heysal.

I think you're right to place emphasis on intent as it distinguishes Heysel from Hillsborough. There was an intent to do harm at Heysel that simply wasn't there at Hillsborough. As I said yesterday, the only reason for placing them on the same footing is for absolution - as much by the English game in it's advance toward greater commercialism as Liverpool supporters looking to cover their own tracks. It stinks, and these pundits touting Hillsborough as 'the rebirth of English football' are pretty much letting the cat out of the bag in the most obvious way. Heysel remains the elephant in the living room and there's nothing in this macabre spectacle we are witnessing right now will ever do to change that.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

I think also it's difficult for us as Evertonians to pass comment as like it or not we have a bias against the Liverpool fan. As the Liverpudlians have the same bias towards their own.

It would be interested to hear from say a Spurs fan, or maybe even a Sheffield fan.

 

[chicoazul]

I reckon this is well left alone. I can see its been approached tactfully by some but in the end 96 (predominately) scousers lost their lives.

Im not arsed about cheap point scoring on the internet, Im sure Juventus are arsed about 39 of their fans dying so thats why its up to THEM how they remember it. Im sure Liverpool would play a part the same as Forest would play their role in commemorating it.

My family and most of my friends are reds, mostly sound. They dont wallow in Hillsborough for self pity reasons, they remember it as its the right thing to do and at the end of the day their human beings.

My neighbour died in it, so a clear fcuk you to anyone tries to twist in into online point scoring. Im more than happy to meet up in person if you want to discuss it one to one.

Rest in peace, the 96.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

I reckon this is well left alone. I can see its been approached tactfully by some but in the end 96 (predominately) scousers lost their lives.

Im not arsed about cheap point scoring on the internet, Im sure Juventus are arsed about 39 of their fans dying so thats why its up to THEM how they remember it. Im sure Liverpool would play a part the same as Forest would play their role in commemorating it.

My family and most of my friends are reds, mostly sound. They dont wallow in Hillsborough for self pity reasons, they remember it as its the right thing to do and at the end of the day their human beings.

My neighbour died in it, so a clear fcuk you to anyone tries to twist in into online point scoring. Im more than happy to meet up in person if you want to discuss it one to one.

Rest in peace, the 96.

I don't think it's point scoring so much anymore mate. Quite a few Kopites are turning it into something else, and the hypocricy stinks.

If kopite says to me - the police ****ed up, and they need to be accounted for, I would say fair do's they do. But if that was the end of the conversation I would have to remind them of all the other factors involved. I know someone who got pulled out alive, but my sentiments are still the same.

There are more than one side to the story, and it's also worth remembering that it's Liverpool who bring it up each year, by people who also chant Munich on the terraces.

It's all about accountability for one's actions.

 

[chicoazul]

Were much better than this mate, much of it is point scoring due to the hatred for them.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

Were much better than this mate, much of it is point scoring due to the hatred for them.

Of course it is. But I think a good person has the right to object to hypocricy.

Especially when I am invited to join all this 96 for justice bollocks. I can think of much better causes.

 

[davek]

I reckon this is well left alone. I can see its been approached tactfully by some but in the end 96 (predominately) scousers lost their lives.

Im not arsed about cheap point scoring on the internet, Im sure Juventus are arsed about 39 of their fans dying so thats why its up to THEM how they remember it. Im sure Liverpool would play a part the same as Forest would play their role in commemorating it.

My family and most of my friends are reds, mostly sound. They dont wallow in Hillsborough for self pity reasons, they remember it as its the right thing to do and at the end of the day their human beings.

My neighbour died in it, so a clear fcuk you to anyone tries to twist in into online point scoring. Im more than happy to meet up in person if you want to discuss it one to one.

Rest in peace, the 96.

I think we all know someone affected, well you do if you're from the area anyway. I certainly do/did so I'm sensitive to it myself. I appreciate your point about leaving it alone, but the disaster on this anniversary has been comandeered by organisations in football for their own ends, something I've argued here. They shouldn't be allowed to. It's also a media circus this time around, a 'happening' for the media to follow on from the Jade Goody story with and it's sucking in many people who should know better.

 

[chicoazul]

I dont think the justice thing is bollocks at all mate. I think you've got some real noble strong families who just want the authorities to at least acknowledge that their blatant fcuk up cost their relative's life.

If it was reacted to correctly, instead of the circus afterwards (that includes that sh*tbag of a paper) then it could have been put to rest.

The South Yorkshire Police behaved like complete and utter spineless ******s.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

I dont think the justice thing is bollocks at all mate. I think you've got some real noble strong families who just want the authorities to at least acknowledge that their blatant fcuk up cost their relative's life.

If it was reacted to correctly, instead of the circus afterwards (that includes that sh*tbag of a paper) then it could have been put to rest.

The South Yorkshire Police behaved like complete and utter spineless ******s.

Well I think any educated person realises that. But what the **** has The Sun got to do with anything anymore? Let's be honest, since Hillsborough Liverpool have had a positive light on them ever since. The 4 years that preceded that event they were rightly seen in a negative light.

Maybe the whole truth will never come out, but the innocent who died, died because of a number of factors, people rushing the gates is a massive factor that can't be ignored, no matter how much Liverpool FC seems to do so.

 

[chicoazul]

The fans rushing the gates is wrong mate. Do your research.

I can link you some fans accounts of Hillsborough if you want to do some rethinking.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

The fans rushing the gates is wrong mate. Do your research.

I can link you some fans accounts of Hillsborough if you want to do some rethinking.

So they never rushed the gates at all? They never turned up? It was 100% the police's fault?

You can give me fans accounts, but I presume they would be biased. I prefer to take the word of the authorities. It's not like they never had previous or have not turned up ticketless and rushed the gates since.

I actually read a book where the author made a point of saying that Hillsborough wasn't just about the police.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

Facts and figures on this site just don't add to me.

At 2.52 to 2.58 the same gate was opened again for 6 minutes, 1,800 to 2,000 people were admitted with less control. CCTV images show that
while the gate was open for 5.5 minutes, fans walked, not rushed, into the ground.

Fanzine Fanzone - Times Online - WBLG: Hillsborough - The Ongoing Fight

Ok, let's break that down.

2000 people went through 1 turnstile in 6 minutes.

That's 333 people per minute.

That's 5 a second. Now count a second in your head and can you imagine if that is even possible?

Now if that's a fabrication, can you understand why doubt is put on the rest of the evidence?