Heysal and Hillsborough disasters

[chicoazul]

I still dont see the bit where I said the police wanted them to die.

And I wouldnt consider the families looking for justice as point scoring, just accountability.

 

[Goat]

I still dont see the bit where I said the police wanted them to die.

And I wouldnt consider the families looking for justice as point scoring, just accountability.

Thats all they want really, thats all they have ever wanted, for somebody, whether its the Police, the FA or whoever, to just put their hands up and say "Yea we ****ed up, sorry".

Its not a lot to ask.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I still dont see the bit where I said the police wanted them to die.

And I wouldnt consider the families looking for justice as point scoring, just accountability.

Perhaps make it more clear what you actually mean then, because the following looks suspect;

In short: the South Yorkshire Police were very, very wrong.

Also research the bit about the ambulances not being allowed on the pitch that could have saved lives that day.

One ambulance on the pitch, just one. With more available to come on but wasnt allowed.

Re "justice"

Anyone who says "justice for the 96" - ask them what they mean and what it will take for them to stop calling for justice....

cumulative failure.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

The Justice part is obvious that they don't see the wrongdoings on both parts, only on the Police, and bizarrely the Sun.

 

[chicoazul]

I really dont get what youre getting at mate. It might be me being a bit dim but the police not allowing ambulances on the pitch and not openin the gates in time could have averted a lot of the loss of life.. Definately, fans turning up with tickets and behaving orderly could have too - no doubt they had a huge contribution. But was this not to be expected, and prepared for, at a semi final game?

But the subsequent lack of accountability from the SY Police just disappointed me a bit.

 

[chicoazul]

The Justice part is obvious that they don't see the wrongdoings on both parts, only on the Police, and bizarrely the Sun.

So the story that the Sun printed wasnt wrong then mate?

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I really dont get what youre getting at mate. It might be me being a bit dim but the police not allowing ambulances on the pitch and not openin the gates in time could have averted a lot of the loss of life.. Definately, fans turning up with tickets and behaving orderly could have too - no doubt they had a huge contribution. But was this not to be expected, and prepared for, at a semi final game?

But the subsequent lack of accountability from the SY Police just disappointed me a bit.

After a tragedy, theres always a sense to look for blame.

In the comprehensive piece I had to write for a magazine - the angle I expected to take from hearing the "justice" campaigns was one of injustice and critical of the police. After evaluating all the recorded accounts and data - from an impartial viewpoint, it was a collective failure. Quick example;

Thousands of fans without tickets shouldn't have turned up, shouldn't have rushed the gates, shouldn't have ran to the front to get the best view.

But, but, but. It was all the polices fault. Why didn't they prepare? - Well, what more could they do? They had prepared for many a finals, how can you anticipate if a freak amount of fans travel? - at the end of the day, the venue can only hold so many, inside and outside the ground.

They only opened one gate. Why? - Well, there was thousands upon thousands of fans all outside the ground. Loads arrived late (Coach driver/companies at fault?) - outside was getting very crowded, people were being pushed into horses etc. "Open a gate and allow some through" - clearly to ease congestion outside the ground. Thats a no brainer. Me or you would do the same - would we then be expected to hold our hands up and accept blame for killing 96 people?

Well... Why did they let so many in!!!?? - well, fans stormed the gate at this point. The police, through the poor venue (FA at fault?) and ridiculous amount of fans who travelled without tickets, were effectively forced to open the gate to ease congestion outside the ground. If they didn't, fans would have been crushed to death outside the ground

Ambulances, why didn't the police let ambulances on the pitch? They did. One driver got on, another couldn't get through, others wern't stationed at their ambulances - only one ambulance was rejected because one officer thought the problem was fighting. I could have made that mistake. Anyone could have done. The stand from the other corner of the stadium looked fine.

I could go on all day - but it doesn't matter anymore. What does it achieve?

People call for justice, people blame the police on duty for murdering fans - yet, the majority of these people dont have a clue what happened that day, nor what they want justice for.

Some police officers saved lives that day. Heroic behaviour.

"Bad scum them though, lid."

 

[Nebbiolo]

Chico, I can see where your point of view comes from. However, the original post asks why such a fuss is made of Hillsborough, to the point of frenzy with a significant number of reds, when Heysal has been airbrushed from the collective consciousness of Liverpool supporters? Nobody is saying the Hillsborough wasn't bad, or that Liverpool fans were the prime causers of it. It just plays badly in my mind when I'm constantly hearing and reading of the victims of Hillsborough when I hear and read not one jot about the victims of Heysal.

 

[chicoazul]

Ok mate, I can see your point. And that you've spent time researching it - fair enough.

The Taylor Reports points to "failure of police control" as the cause but you cant rule out the stuff you've mentioned as clearly it was a contributing factor.

Im linking these reports:

The impact of the Hillsborough disaster on survivors' lives | Football | The Observer

Gary Burns: survivor - Hillsborough Football Disaster

Particularly the top one is well worth a read and covers the ambulance bit - from an ambulance man that day, I'll post a section of it.

We were at the Northern General when we got a 3-9 call to an incident. They told us there was a fatality, but when we got to the ground there were ambulances from everywhere, even Derbyshire. As we pulled up a policeman came to my window and said: "You can't go on the pitch, they're still fighting." A senior ambulance officer came to the door, and it was him who put the horns on. We said: "The policeman says they're fighting - we can't go on." And he said: "I don't give a **** who's told you you can't go on. You get on that pitch and you don't stop until you get to the end."

I'd be upset if one of my relatives had died in that.

Maybe Im not putting myself across well enough as I do get what youre saying but my main bone of contention is with stuff like this. They deserved better.

 

[chicoazul]

Chico, I can see where your point of view comes from. However, the original post asks why such a fuss is made of Hillsborough, to the point of frenzy with a significant number of reds, when Heysal has been airbrushed from the collective consciousness of Liverpool supporters? Nobody is saying the Hillsborough wasn't bad, or that Liverpool fans were the prime causers of it. It just plays badly in my mind when I'm constantly hearing and reading of the victims of Hillsborough when I hear and read not one jot about the victims of Heysal.

Its ok mate, I got your original point well. I just dont like it when its taken as an online point scoring thing which is often is but I had no issue with the way you approached it, nor do I have any right to have issue with your balanced opinion.

 

[davek]

After a tragedy, theres always a sense to look for blame.

In the comprehensive piece I had to write for a magazine - the angle I expected to take from hearing the "justice" campaigns was one of injustice and critical of the police. After evaluating all the recorded accounts and data - from an impartial viewpoint, it was a collective failure. Quick example;

Thousands of fans without tickets shouldn't have turned up, shouldn't have rushed the gates, shouldn't have ran to the front to get the best view.

But, but, but. It was all the polices fault. Why didn't they prepare? - Well, what more could they do? They had prepared for many a finals, how can you anticipate if a freak amount of fans travel? - at the end of the day, the venue can only hold so many, inside and outside the ground.

They only opened one gate. Why? - Well, there was thousands upon thousands of fans all outside the ground. Loads arrived late (Coach driver/companies at fault?) - outside was getting very crowded, people were being pushed into horses etc. "Open a gate and allow some through" - clearly to ease congestion outside the ground. Thats a no brainer. Me or you would do the same - would we then be expected to hold our hands up and accept blame for killing 96 people?

Well... Why did they let so many in!!!?? - well, fans stormed the gate at this point. The police, through the poor venue (FA at fault?) and ridiculous amount of fans who travelled without tickets, were effectively forced to open the gate to ease congestion outside the ground. If they didn't, fans would have been crushed to death outside the ground

Ambulances, why didn't the police let ambulances on the pitch? They did. One driver got on, another couldn't get through, others wern't stationed at their ambulances - only one ambulance was rejected because one officer thought the problem was fighting. I could have made that mistake. Anyone could have done. The stand from the other corner of the stadium looked fine.

I could go on all day - but it doesn't matter anymore. What does it achieve?

People call for justice, people blame the police on duty for murdering fans - yet, the majority of these people dont have a clue what happened that day, nor what they want justice for.

Some police officers saved lives that day. Heroic behaviour.

"Bad scum them though, lid."

Danny, it's my experience that the coppers in situations like this are about as useful as a chocolate fireguard. Hopeless they are. Firemen and paramedics will tell you how ******* useless they are.

As far as cumulative blame goes I'd endorse what you say as far as some fans on the day go. Anyone old enough to go to a big match pre-Hillsborough knows the score on how certain lads just didn't give a **** about their fellow fans and would get in by hook or by crook at other people's expense. I can remember a cup replay with Man City when I was a kid travelling with Everton and the old Kippax stand was a disaster waiting to happen with a couple thousand extra Evertonians who weren't supposed to be there. You curse your own at moments like that. It was dangerous and it was stupid. The new PC though is that you're not supposed to acknowledge that with Hillsborough, or you at least demote it to the bottom of the hierarchy of blame. Hillsborough happened for two reasons: senior coppers froze on the day and a minority of supporters didn't control themselves. That was the recipe for the disaster.

As for justice: for the reason already stated in the thread about the victims in all this not receiving treatment, there is a case to answer. It's not the Sun in the dock though, it's the Sheffiled Coroner's Office and the South Yorkshire police.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Yeah, I mentioned that ambulance bit;

Ambulances, why didn't the police let ambulances on the pitch? They did. One driver got on, another couldn't get through, others wern't stationed at their ambulances - only one ambulance was rejected because one officer thought the problem was fighting. I could have made that mistake. Anyone could have done. The stand from the other corner of the stadium looked fine.

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT] Am sure that ambulance driver ashamed/embarrassed/rip up an award because he bottled it and got back in the ambulance and got off? – just like some police officers bottled it.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]Heysel was still in the minds of everyone then - fighting was the main headache officers faced. From the view of the corner the police/ambulance section was stationed, things looked fine. Reports of "disturbances" was coming through... disturbances naturally assumed to be fighting - as all police forces at football games would naturally assume.

 

[chicoazul]

I think you just typed better what I was trying to say there Dave. Especially the last bit.

 

[chicoazul]

Yeah, I mentioned that ambulance bit;

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT] Am sure that ambulance driver ashamed/embarrassed/rip up an award because he bottled it and got back in the ambulance and got off? – just like some police officers bottled it.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]Heysel was still in the minds of everyone then - fighting was the main headache officers faced. From the view of the corner the police/ambulance section was stationed, things looked fine. Reports of "disturbances" was coming through... disturbances naturally assumed to be fighting - as all police forces at football games would naturally assume.

Mate, Im not anti police. Not all all, you know I have friends who are police officers. On the whole I really feel for what they have to endure on a daily basis.

But on this occasion, the powers that be got it wrong then failed to act honourably. They still havent apologised.

And youre right, some police officers that day were superb beyond the call of duty.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Mate, Im not anti police. Not all all, you know I have friends who are police officers. On the whole I really feel for what they have to endure on a daily basis.

But on this occasion, the powers that be got it wrong then failed to act honourably. They still havent apologised.

And youre right, some police officers that day were superb beyond the call of duty.

Not saying you are.

The powers that be got some aspects wrong, definitely. But it was human error, nothing more. There was nothing malicious. If you believe that, and some do... then you believe the police actually intended harm and death on fans. Various decisions they made were effectively forced upon them, like a domino effect. I highlighted this with the gate opening earlier.

And anyway, how will one senior officer admitting liability help bring justice? - if hand on heart he thinks he dealt with the situation as best as he could - what more can you do? - what more can you expect? He said mistakes were made, mistakes with the best intentions at heart.

Am sure decisions that day will haunt certain peoples lives, ticketless fans who stormed gates, FAs decision to host the game at that ground, ambulance drivers not stationed by ambulances, police officers who thought fans were fighting, ambulance driver who bottled it and ran from the pitch etc etc

Mistakes & Misjudgements = Collective failures. Lessons to be learnt - which they were (removal of gates). I dont think the term justice applies anymore.