Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[Tubey]

You're havin a laff aren't you? The Atlee Labour Government killed stone dead the type of squalor and disease and ill informed and ill educated lifestyles most people were forced to endure for centuries. It was a mammoth achievement from that party and still, even today, has millions voting tribally for it - such was its monumental legacy.

The Tories? Their legacy is trying to knock all that down..which is why any working class person with an ounce of common sense hates them with a vengeance.

Spot on. But... I think the working class are too ready to give Labour a free pass because of that history, and what the opposition are.

Take Kirkby for instance - an obviously corrupt council and politicians who have done the square sum of zero for the town for the past... forever - yet people vote Labour in their droves.

Complacency ruined Labour, and has done for a long time. As the general standard of living became more middle class than abject squalor, people began to look at Labour and realise they hadn't done anything for them in a very long time.

That's why a Corbyn and the promised return to 1970s socialist/marxist nonsense is sending a shiver down every 'normal' persons' spine.

 

[peteblue]

You're havin a laff aren't you? The Atlee Labour Government killed stone dead the type of squalor and disease and ill informed and ill educated lifestyles most people were forced to endure for centuries. It was a mammoth achievement from that party and still, even today, has millions voting tribally for it - such was its monumental legacy.

The Tories? Their legacy is trying to knock all that down..which is why any working class person with an ounce of common sense hates them with a vengeance.

So since Atlee, what have any Labour government or Local Authority done to improve the lot of their voters ? Harold Wilson built loads of motorways around Merseyside, but since? . Let's be honest here, what has any Labour Council or Government done apart from dole out money to it's clients......

 

[neil999]

You're havin a laff aren't you? The Atlee Labour Government killed stone dead the type of squalor and disease and ill informed and ill educated lifestyles most people were forced to endure for centuries. It was a mammoth achievement from that party and still, even today, has millions voting tribally for it - such was its monumental legacy.

The Tories? Their legacy is trying to knock all that down..which is why any working class person with an ounce of common sense hates them with a vengeance.

Even the Blair governments managed to pass some decent legislation(minimum wage being one, which was gonna cripple business apparently...)

 

[davek]

Attlee was a true great of British history. To suggest the current labour party in any way compares with a man of his standing is sheer delusion. He'd be embarrassed by 2016 Labour.

He'd be embarrassed by the bunch of neo-liberal free marketeer bushwhackers that Corbyn has been fighting...he'd completely identify with Corbyns leadership though - it's just Old Labour to the core.

 

[davek]

Even the Blair governments managed to pass some decent legislation(minimum wage being one, which was gonna cripple business apparently...)

Crumbs from the rich man's table.

 

[The Esk]

Has anyone ever noticed that the poorer areas of the country are Labour controlled, apart from the Labour elite areas in London. And has anyone noticed that these poor areas have had Labour in charge when they have been in Government. And has anyone spotted that Labour has been in charge of the areas for half a century or more. And has anyone noticed that they have not done a blind bit of good and merely kept the people down to ensure they vote Labour. So I ask the question, where Labour is in power exactly what have they done apart from giving out social security..........

Isn't this the identical argument Trump has been using with the non-white, non-Hispanic Afro-Caribbeans in the US Presidential Election?

 

[davek]

Spot on. But... I think the working class are too ready to give Labour a free pass because of that history, and what the opposition are.

Take Kirkby for instance - an obviously corrupt council and politicians who have done the square sum of zero for the town for the past... forever - yet people vote Labour in their droves.

Complacency ruined Labour, and has done for a long time. As the general standard of living became more middle class than abject squalor, people began to look at Labour and realise they hadn't done anything for them in a very long time.

That's why a Corbyn and the promised return to 1970s socialist/marxist nonsense is sending a shiver down every 'normal' persons' spine.

Baffles me that analysis: Corbyn's politics is the antidote to that type of machine politics you refer to in Knowsley.

 

[Tubey]

He'd be embarrassed by the bunch of neo-liberal free marketeer bushwhackers that Corbyn has been fighting...he'd completely identify with Corbyns leadership though - it's just Old Labour to the core.

Nah. Attlee was consensus politics. Corbyn is closer to Foot in the early 80s, so unless you mean 'Old Labour' meaning that era, no.

 

[davek]

So since Atlee, what have any Labour government or Local Authority done to improve the lot of their voters ? Harold Wilson built loads of motorways around Merseyside, but since? . Let's be honest here, what has any Labour Council or Government done apart from dole out money to it's clients......

You said 'in the last century' - I corrected you.

If you're looking for a defence of New Labour from me you haven't been paying attention.

 

[peteblue]

He'd be embarrassed by the bunch of neo-liberal free marketeer bushwhackers that Corbyn has been fighting...he'd completely identify with Corbyns leadership though - it's just Old Labour to the core.

But to what effect. To what end. To achieve what exactly. Corbyn is a fool of the worst kind, a man who grew up in a wealthy environment and has absolutely no knowledge of how the poor on Merseyside live or make a living. But even worse he just wants to protest, walk in a march, carry a flag. Where is the man who wants to rule and make a difference.......

 

[Tubey]

Isn't this the identical argument Trump has been using with the non-white, non-Hispanic Afro-Caribbeans in the US Presidential Election?

One of the only things Trump is right about. Those people vote Democrat, yet the Democrats proceed to do next to nothing for their advancement, leading to apathy.

It's taking something for granted. "Oh, they're Hispanic, they'll vote Democrat anyway."

It definitely happens in the UK. That's why you have "safe" seats after all.

 

[davek]

Nah. Attlee was consensus politics. Corbyn is closer to Foot in the early 80s, so unless you mean 'Old Labour' meaning that era, no.

No mate: Corbyn would have been consensus too back then. Butskillism and Corbynism - peas in a pod. Even the One nation Tories accepted the main planks of Labourist vison of the contract between individual and state. There was a commitment to welfarism; a mixed economy; 'full' employment etc...all common ground.

The Blairite entryists who championed the free market forged the next consensus with Thatcherism.

 

[peteblue]

You said 'in the last century' - I corrected you.

If you're looking for a defence of New Labour from me you haven't been paying attention.

I'm not mate. I grew up supporting Labour, I did the whole bit during the Wilson years, I knocked on doors and delivered leaflets. I saw the likes of Wilson, who to this day I greatly admired, try to change the lives of people like my mum and dad. I met him, he was one of us. But after, it just went wrong and this latest incumbent is as far away from the working class as Cameron or Osborne. May is probably closer than Corbyn..........

 

[The Esk]

One of the only things Trump is right about. Those people vote Democrat, yet the Democrats proceed to do next to nothing for their advancement, leading to apathy.

It's taking something for granted. "Oh, they're Hispanic, they'll vote Democrat anyway."

It definitely happens in the UK. That's why you have "safe" seats after all.

The counter argument is which party has served those people best? It's certainly not the Conservatives. So even if we have to determine the least worst option, it will never be the Conservatives. The fact is there will always be a part of society that is relatively poor, relatively uneducated, relatively disadvantaged.

The question is how great will their disadvantage be? Historically they are more disadvantaged under Conservative power than Labour therefore Labour is the least worst option for the disadvantaged. Hopefully one day they'll be more than that - but there is next to no chance that a Conservative Government will benefit the disadvantaged at the expense of the advantaged.

 

[davek]

But to what effect. To what end. To achieve what exactly. Corbyn is a fool of the worst kind, a man who grew up in a wealthy environment and has absolutely no knowledge of how the poor on Merseyside live or make a living. But even worse he just wants to protest, walk in a march, carry a flag. Where is the man who wants to rule and make a difference.......

Not, in and of itself, an obstacle to being a decent man and being empathetic to those less fortunate, so I dont know what your point is ther.e

 

[Tubey]

No mate: Corbyn would have been consensus too back then. Butskillism and Corbynism - peas in a pod. Even the One nation Tories accepted the main planks of Labourist vison of the contract between individual and state. There was a commitment to welfarism; a mixed economy; 'full' employment etc...all common ground.

The Blairite entryists who championed the free markey forged the next consensus with Thatcherism.

Sorry, but the words "Corbyn" and "consensus" don't belong in the same sentence. He's not even prepared to meet his own party halfway, let alone the opposition.

Indeed, if he was a pragmatist in that regard in even a minor way, I wouldn't be a critic of him - but then, he wouldn't exist I suppose.

No, he's a serial protester - in many ways, he couldn't be more Michael Foot if he tried.