Whistlin' Dixie
Player Valuation: £50m
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Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate
- Thread starter summerisle
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peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
Through a process of examining skills, experience, personal qualities and a knowledge of the ministry in question.......or just the first names in his contact book.........
orchard
Player Valuation: £60m
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
The context of the discussion on Corbyn should be seen through a very particular prism. From moment 1 the top of the Labour Party has hated him and everything he represents (ie mass popularity amongst ordinary people). The media too have also taken a dislike to him and have presented information on him in a particularly distorted and bordering on unethical way.
When you independently look at the evidence the narrative that is being presented just doesn't stack. The argument that essentially working class people are racist, working class people hate Corbyn and Labour are fading into obscurity needs to be challenged.
There is a poll today showing Labour have for the first time since Corbyn took over moved into a lead over the Tories. There vote is such that they would be the largest party in a hung Parliament. It is 1 Poll, but all polls have shown an increasing closing the gap since he took over in September. They trailed the tories by 7 points at the election and that gap had grown as wide as 10+ point by the time he took office. The closing of the gap to zero has been a remarkable achievement full stop but it is even more startling when you consider the majority of his MP's have not supported him.
Some people will not like polling data. That's fair enough. Lets look at the elections data. He has had 2 separate Parliamentary elections (1 which UKIP boasted they would win much in the same way they are boasting now they will win seats in the North). Suffice to say UKIP got trounced and Labour substantially increased it's majority in a seat North of Manchester. Likewise in tooting, Ukip's vote was halved the tories vote shrunk and Labour's vote increased. This pattern is being borne out across local council elections which is seeing a decline in UKIP votes and more people voting Labour.
In spite of what the media tell you, Labour won last months council elections with a 6-7 point swing. They also received their highest vote share in the Mayoral election.
There are many conclusions to be drawn from these. I don't blame UKIP talking a good game and they will be buoyant after the referenda, however it is the job of the media and especially Labour MP's to reflect information in a fair and objective manner. Labour has problems, particularly in it's heartlands where years of being ignored by the Blairite project has led to a feeling of marginalisation. ON jobs, wages, access to the NHS and yes immigrants (a factor but by no means the central or only factor as it's made out to be by the media) are a reflection of this. All of these issues predate Corbyn and to try and make out Corbyn has caused them seems laughable to me.
What should also be said is Labour has seen in every mechanism we have available (polling, local council results mayoral elections, national elections and Parliamentary elections) a remarkable turnaround since September 2015 when he took charge. The fact his position is even being considered is astonishing.
However it comes back to my original point, this has nothing to do with his performance and everything to do with Labour MP's teaching it's membership a lesson. If we put it into context, we have a membership of 400,000 ordinary people who have made a decision having that decision undermined by 100 or so millionaires who exist in the top 1% of society. Is this really going to help them reconnect to ordinary people? It is undemocratic and it is elitist. Don't believe any other media outlet (funnily enough owned by the same 1% who mingle with MP's) tell you otherwise.
I think UKIP and the Conservatives are scared of Corbyn. Scared of facing a leader who connects with numbers of people they could only dream of. They are definitely heightening this to get rid of him so they can have another lame duck technocrat to face. The tragedy is the 100 or so MP's will do their bidding for them. In all honesty I think they would rather the Tories won than allow someone like Corbyn to win.
There have been many disgraceful episodes from politicians over the years. However the attempt by MP's to engineer a coup against Corbyn ranks as one of the very worst bits of treachery I remember. They are basically telling people like most of us on this board we have no right to decide what sort of leader we like and if we choose someone they disagree with they will veto it.
When you independently look at the evidence the narrative that is being presented just doesn't stack. The argument that essentially working class people are racist, working class people hate Corbyn and Labour are fading into obscurity needs to be challenged.
There is a poll today showing Labour have for the first time since Corbyn took over moved into a lead over the Tories. There vote is such that they would be the largest party in a hung Parliament. It is 1 Poll, but all polls have shown an increasing closing the gap since he took over in September. They trailed the tories by 7 points at the election and that gap had grown as wide as 10+ point by the time he took office. The closing of the gap to zero has been a remarkable achievement full stop but it is even more startling when you consider the majority of his MP's have not supported him.
Some people will not like polling data. That's fair enough. Lets look at the elections data. He has had 2 separate Parliamentary elections (1 which UKIP boasted they would win much in the same way they are boasting now they will win seats in the North). Suffice to say UKIP got trounced and Labour substantially increased it's majority in a seat North of Manchester. Likewise in tooting, Ukip's vote was halved the tories vote shrunk and Labour's vote increased. This pattern is being borne out across local council elections which is seeing a decline in UKIP votes and more people voting Labour.
In spite of what the media tell you, Labour won last months council elections with a 6-7 point swing. They also received their highest vote share in the Mayoral election.
There are many conclusions to be drawn from these. I don't blame UKIP talking a good game and they will be buoyant after the referenda, however it is the job of the media and especially Labour MP's to reflect information in a fair and objective manner. Labour has problems, particularly in it's heartlands where years of being ignored by the Blairite project has led to a feeling of marginalisation. ON jobs, wages, access to the NHS and yes immigrants (a factor but by no means the central or only factor as it's made out to be by the media) are a reflection of this. All of these issues predate Corbyn and to try and make out Corbyn has caused them seems laughable to me.
What should also be said is Labour has seen in every mechanism we have available (polling, local council results mayoral elections, national elections and Parliamentary elections) a remarkable turnaround since September 2015 when he took charge. The fact his position is even being considered is astonishing.
However it comes back to my original point, this has nothing to do with his performance and everything to do with Labour MP's teaching it's membership a lesson. If we put it into context, we have a membership of 400,000 ordinary people who have made a decision having that decision undermined by 100 or so millionaires who exist in the top 1% of society. Is this really going to help them reconnect to ordinary people? It is undemocratic and it is elitist. Don't believe any other media outlet (funnily enough owned by the same 1% who mingle with MP's) tell you otherwise.
I think UKIP and the Conservatives are scared of Corbyn. Scared of facing a leader who connects with numbers of people they could only dream of. They are definitely heightening this to get rid of him so they can have another lame duck technocrat to face. The tragedy is the 100 or so MP's will do their bidding for them. In all honesty I think they would rather the Tories won than allow someone like Corbyn to win.
There have been many disgraceful episodes from politicians over the years. However the attempt by MP's to engineer a coup against Corbyn ranks as one of the very worst bits of treachery I remember. They are basically telling people like most of us on this board we have no right to decide what sort of leader we like and if we choose someone they disagree with they will veto it.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
Why should the 55% majority of members leave and join another party? Surely if the MP's are not happy with the direction of the party and the leader their membership elected they should leave and form a new party?
Why do a handful of wealthy millionaires get to override the will of hundreds of thousands of ordinary hard working people who pay their salary?
Whistlin' Dixie
Player Valuation: £50m
Not long to go before the return of the faux-tory, fifth columnist slime like reeves, kendall, byrne etc...
magicjuan
Player Valuation: £60m
Who does the labour party represent?
Who does the PLP represent?
Nailed it. Great post.
Who does the PLP represent?
Nailed it. Great post.
TheBlueGibbon
Player Valuation: £40m
A view from a (non-Corbyn voter) party member and sociologist.
The original is from here and is not mine.
It was the worst of times, it was the worst of times. The United Kingdom stands on the precipice, politics is thrown into turmoil, and the inevitable coup against Jeremy Corbyn is under way. This is a mistake. A very grave mistake, and I'm going to explain why.
There are plenty of things to criticise Jeremy's leadership for, and as a left Corbyn sceptic who didn't vote for him, I've shared a few on this very blog. And I can understand the position of the coup plotters too. While most of them have never reconciled themselves to Jeremy's politics, they want a "credible" leader who can unite the party, offer a compelling vision, and scoop up enough swing voters to carry us into government. After all, winning elections and winning power is what Labour's about, right? That's the most important thing, the only thing, surely?
Actually, there is something more important than the leadership and winning a general election in the Autumn (which may never happen - a coalition/national government is another option, as will be fleshed out in a future post). And that is the continued existence of the Labour Party. I'm afraid to say, a contest - which is happening now - imperils it. Splitting and disintegration is now a very real possibility.
The first thing to point out is despite our membership being the largest since Tony Blair was at the peak of his powers and winning the largest political party in Britain trophy by a country mile, the party's roots are shallower than they once were. This isn't because it's gone middle class or some such nonsense. Partly it has to do with long-term economic and cultural changes that are eating away at the social groups that previously and unquestioningly lent their votes to Labour by the tonnage. Unfortunately, Labour under Blair and Brown pushed policies that broke up our party's constituency even further. It's worth noting you never see the Tories set about punishing their own people. As a result of this erosion, in constituency after constituency outside London the views of (pro-Remain) Labour MPs amounted to very little. There's little mileage in blaming them for not carrying their constituencies and/or mobilising the Labour vote in greater numbers, just as there is no justification in blaming Jeremy for not making inroads into the stubbornly eurosceptic one-third of our vote. Our voice, our authority counts for very little. On non-party political questions, far fewer look to the Labour Party for leadership than was once the case.
The second point is Labour are not going to be able to reconnect with a leader who is less radical than Jeremy, and is willing to pander to anti-immigrant and welfare scrounger sentiment. "I understand people's very real concerns about immigration" smacks of insincerity and a desperate attempt at fishing for votes, and is a line that won't be bitten as other parties can bash immigrants without the fluffy caveats a centre left party must festoon its position with. But not just because of this. As Liz Kendall demonstrated in her campaign last year, she and the majority of the PLP have no conception or understanding of the crisis afflicting our support and what can be done to turn it around. They think - ironically like the Trots they despise - that the correct leadership will short circuit all the problems and land us in a better place. It won't.
The third point is the trade unions. Too many in the PLP see them as a cash dispenser they'd rather do without. They prefer unions that stump up the readies come what may without any expectations or returns. Yet, and it's a good job I never tire of saying this, unions are organisations of working people. That's all they are. They're not perfect but they remain the largest, most democratic, and potentially the most powerful collectives in civil society. So if anyone in Labour, anyone has little or no time for trade unions, then effectively they have no time for the aspirations of our people. It's as simple as that. But we've gone beyond that now. 12 union general secretaries have signed a letter in support of Jeremy Corbyn, and this worries me. I'm worried because the removal of Jeremy puts into question their backing for the party. Think about it. A Labour leader with policies and values largely aligned to those favoured by most unions is ousted by a coterie of MPs who, when in power, at best ignored and at worst attacked workers; why should a union carry on giving money and logistical support to a party where such a thing can happen? The nightmare of a split forever locking the labour movement out of power thanks to the electoral system is a possibility. I won't walk if Jeremy goes, but I and the bulk of the Labour Party would if the unions decided to start again.
Of course, there is another possibility of a split and potential extinction, and that's what happens when the coup against Jeremy fails. Despite some conveniently leaked claims, last I heard the party membership today are pretty much the same party membership of a week ago. As Jeremy's opponents haven't spent the last nine months recruiting "moderate" voters to counter the surge for Corbynism, how then do they expect to win a leadership contest? Some might have been disappointed by Jeremy during the EU campaign (though, it should be noted, a number of PLP folks urged him to take a backseat - people now criticising him for not leading from the front), but I would wager these numbers would be swamped by party members who weren't and aren't Jez fans disgusted at their attempt to turn over a democratic election after months of constant sniping and destabilisation. And deep down the coup plotters know this, which is why no one is rushing to identify themselves as the anti-Jeremy. So what happens when they lose and Jeremy is returned as leader? A retread to attacking him for every fart and grocer's apostrophe? Shut up and bide their time while facing a hostile membership and deselections? Or form a breakaway party?
And so, this is where we are. The annoying thing about all this is while there was little movement in the polls, the work the party needs to do to strengthen itself and rebuild our position among our support was starting to happen. The Fire Brigades Union reaffiliated. For the first time, the PCS are considering it. The British Medical Association has moved closer to the labour movement. There is some evidence that Labour were slowly but surely eating into UKIP's support in local by-elections. And considering the move from three to four-party politics since 2012, the party held its position. The process of recomposition was under way, and the response to Thursday's defeat should be reaching out to the remain voters and going out on the doorsteps to listen to what our people are saying. I plan on doing that regardless, but for the party's leading lights they have abandoned what needs to be done. It's down to the members who are more interested in facing outwards to take leadership and speak to our people than MPs threatening to rip the party apart and bury it.
The choice forced on us is this. We must choose between a Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn, warts and all, and disintegration under someone else. I know what I'm going to vote for.
The original is from here and is not mine.
It was the worst of times, it was the worst of times. The United Kingdom stands on the precipice, politics is thrown into turmoil, and the inevitable coup against Jeremy Corbyn is under way. This is a mistake. A very grave mistake, and I'm going to explain why.
There are plenty of things to criticise Jeremy's leadership for, and as a left Corbyn sceptic who didn't vote for him, I've shared a few on this very blog. And I can understand the position of the coup plotters too. While most of them have never reconciled themselves to Jeremy's politics, they want a "credible" leader who can unite the party, offer a compelling vision, and scoop up enough swing voters to carry us into government. After all, winning elections and winning power is what Labour's about, right? That's the most important thing, the only thing, surely?
Actually, there is something more important than the leadership and winning a general election in the Autumn (which may never happen - a coalition/national government is another option, as will be fleshed out in a future post). And that is the continued existence of the Labour Party. I'm afraid to say, a contest - which is happening now - imperils it. Splitting and disintegration is now a very real possibility.
The first thing to point out is despite our membership being the largest since Tony Blair was at the peak of his powers and winning the largest political party in Britain trophy by a country mile, the party's roots are shallower than they once were. This isn't because it's gone middle class or some such nonsense. Partly it has to do with long-term economic and cultural changes that are eating away at the social groups that previously and unquestioningly lent their votes to Labour by the tonnage. Unfortunately, Labour under Blair and Brown pushed policies that broke up our party's constituency even further. It's worth noting you never see the Tories set about punishing their own people. As a result of this erosion, in constituency after constituency outside London the views of (pro-Remain) Labour MPs amounted to very little. There's little mileage in blaming them for not carrying their constituencies and/or mobilising the Labour vote in greater numbers, just as there is no justification in blaming Jeremy for not making inroads into the stubbornly eurosceptic one-third of our vote. Our voice, our authority counts for very little. On non-party political questions, far fewer look to the Labour Party for leadership than was once the case.
The second point is Labour are not going to be able to reconnect with a leader who is less radical than Jeremy, and is willing to pander to anti-immigrant and welfare scrounger sentiment. "I understand people's very real concerns about immigration" smacks of insincerity and a desperate attempt at fishing for votes, and is a line that won't be bitten as other parties can bash immigrants without the fluffy caveats a centre left party must festoon its position with. But not just because of this. As Liz Kendall demonstrated in her campaign last year, she and the majority of the PLP have no conception or understanding of the crisis afflicting our support and what can be done to turn it around. They think - ironically like the Trots they despise - that the correct leadership will short circuit all the problems and land us in a better place. It won't.
The third point is the trade unions. Too many in the PLP see them as a cash dispenser they'd rather do without. They prefer unions that stump up the readies come what may without any expectations or returns. Yet, and it's a good job I never tire of saying this, unions are organisations of working people. That's all they are. They're not perfect but they remain the largest, most democratic, and potentially the most powerful collectives in civil society. So if anyone in Labour, anyone has little or no time for trade unions, then effectively they have no time for the aspirations of our people. It's as simple as that. But we've gone beyond that now. 12 union general secretaries have signed a letter in support of Jeremy Corbyn, and this worries me. I'm worried because the removal of Jeremy puts into question their backing for the party. Think about it. A Labour leader with policies and values largely aligned to those favoured by most unions is ousted by a coterie of MPs who, when in power, at best ignored and at worst attacked workers; why should a union carry on giving money and logistical support to a party where such a thing can happen? The nightmare of a split forever locking the labour movement out of power thanks to the electoral system is a possibility. I won't walk if Jeremy goes, but I and the bulk of the Labour Party would if the unions decided to start again.
Of course, there is another possibility of a split and potential extinction, and that's what happens when the coup against Jeremy fails. Despite some conveniently leaked claims, last I heard the party membership today are pretty much the same party membership of a week ago. As Jeremy's opponents haven't spent the last nine months recruiting "moderate" voters to counter the surge for Corbynism, how then do they expect to win a leadership contest? Some might have been disappointed by Jeremy during the EU campaign (though, it should be noted, a number of PLP folks urged him to take a backseat - people now criticising him for not leading from the front), but I would wager these numbers would be swamped by party members who weren't and aren't Jez fans disgusted at their attempt to turn over a democratic election after months of constant sniping and destabilisation. And deep down the coup plotters know this, which is why no one is rushing to identify themselves as the anti-Jeremy. So what happens when they lose and Jeremy is returned as leader? A retread to attacking him for every fart and grocer's apostrophe? Shut up and bide their time while facing a hostile membership and deselections? Or form a breakaway party?
And so, this is where we are. The annoying thing about all this is while there was little movement in the polls, the work the party needs to do to strengthen itself and rebuild our position among our support was starting to happen. The Fire Brigades Union reaffiliated. For the first time, the PCS are considering it. The British Medical Association has moved closer to the labour movement. There is some evidence that Labour were slowly but surely eating into UKIP's support in local by-elections. And considering the move from three to four-party politics since 2012, the party held its position. The process of recomposition was under way, and the response to Thursday's defeat should be reaching out to the remain voters and going out on the doorsteps to listen to what our people are saying. I plan on doing that regardless, but for the party's leading lights they have abandoned what needs to be done. It's down to the members who are more interested in facing outwards to take leadership and speak to our people than MPs threatening to rip the party apart and bury it.
The choice forced on us is this. We must choose between a Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn, warts and all, and disintegration under someone else. I know what I'm going to vote for.
TheBlueGibbon
Player Valuation: £40m
The Shadow Energy and Shadow Work and Pensions secretaries have also resigned, and given the following statement:
“Together with our colleagues from the centre left of the party – John Healey, Nia Griffith, and Kate Green – we just met with Jeremy Corbyn to discuss the future of our party. We had hoped to leave that meeting with the confidence to continue to support the leadership in bringing the Labour Party together from within the Shadow Cabinet. During the course of the meeting it became clear that this would not be possible.
“It is therefore with huge sadness that we have resigned from the Shadow Cabinet. We have both been deeply distressed that this week of all weeks Labour has descended into infighting instead of looking outwards to the country. We do not believe that this is a time for internal warfare. Following the referendum result we believe we in Labour have a unique responsibility to show collective leadership to help bring the country through these difficult times. It has become increasingly apparent in the last 48 hours that this is not a realistic prospect in the current circumstances.
“The lack of confidence in the leadership goes beyond the small group of MPs who have consistently opposed Jeremy since his election. It has become clear that he is unable to form a broad, inclusive Shadow Cabinet that draws on the best of our movement’s left and right traditions. For that reason we have told Jeremy that whilst the party holds a leadership contest – which is now inevitable – we believe Tom Watson ought to take over as a caretaker leader to stabilise the party and to enable us to play a full part as the official opposition in one of the most difficult periods this country has ever faced.”
“Together with our colleagues from the centre left of the party – John Healey, Nia Griffith, and Kate Green – we just met with Jeremy Corbyn to discuss the future of our party. We had hoped to leave that meeting with the confidence to continue to support the leadership in bringing the Labour Party together from within the Shadow Cabinet. During the course of the meeting it became clear that this would not be possible.
“It is therefore with huge sadness that we have resigned from the Shadow Cabinet. We have both been deeply distressed that this week of all weeks Labour has descended into infighting instead of looking outwards to the country. We do not believe that this is a time for internal warfare. Following the referendum result we believe we in Labour have a unique responsibility to show collective leadership to help bring the country through these difficult times. It has become increasingly apparent in the last 48 hours that this is not a realistic prospect in the current circumstances.
“The lack of confidence in the leadership goes beyond the small group of MPs who have consistently opposed Jeremy since his election. It has become clear that he is unable to form a broad, inclusive Shadow Cabinet that draws on the best of our movement’s left and right traditions. For that reason we have told Jeremy that whilst the party holds a leadership contest – which is now inevitable – we believe Tom Watson ought to take over as a caretaker leader to stabilise the party and to enable us to play a full part as the official opposition in one of the most difficult periods this country has ever faced.”
Foot Long Hot Dog
Player Valuation: A packet of pork scratchings
Is Corbyn the man to win back the crucial centre ground back from the Tories in the next election?
That's the only question that needs answering.
As whether he's popular with rank and file Labour voters and the Unions isn't the issue, it's whether he's viewed as being electable by the swing voters that Labour will need to win back in order to form a Govt.
That's the only question that needs answering.
As whether he's popular with rank and file Labour voters and the Unions isn't the issue, it's whether he's viewed as being electable by the swing voters that Labour will need to win back in order to form a Govt.
It is Labour party members who elect their prospective MPs to stand to represent a constituency. It is the democratic way in the Labour Party. Those members have the right to deselect a sitting MP if they so choice.
It is not the constituents who vote for their prospective MP but they do at an election.
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