Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

I agree with those points but there has to be a risk that a pro-Remain house could obstruct any Brexit deal as originally envisaged by the Referendum outcome (leave means leave etc.) It is the Remainers who have the most to gain from allowing a Parliamentary vote on this.

The other thing is each party has their own agenda, the Labour party, Lib dems say there should be no cap on imigration, the Tories say there should be, the single market etc, whatever is put on the table in the commons you will never get an agreement across the house, the voting will be all over the place.

 

[tsubaki]

Corbyn made a big deal about his enthusiastic campaigning for remain. I can't recall a single point from him since the vote supporting the four freedoms. Given the Tories are running roughshod over something he 'apparently' supports, the lack of opposition has been appalling.

Corbyn was by far the most prominent Labour politician campaigning for Remain; he had just short of ten times more appearances than anyone else in the (then) Shadow Cabinet. If anyone was invisible during that campaign, it was the Blairite tendency.

 

[tsubaki]

For the first time in a while I simply must disagree with you.

The count's been taken. The choices were 'In' or 'Out' and that was that.

People voted leave because they seen that the UK weren't able to change the EU from within as was promised time after time. There's no possibility that we can change the terms through more electoral processes once the negotiations are complete.

Another vote will further the illusion of democracy when in reality it's perpetuating the will of the establishment.

Sorry - it may not have been clear, what I was saying is that Parliament should get a vote when the treaty is completed. I think this is important for two reasons - for a start, because having Parliamentary consent for it is vital, and secondly because a treaty of that magnitude and likely complexity has to be examined in detail by at least semi-independent people.

 

[Tubey]

Corbyn was by far the most prominent Labour politician campaigning for Remain; he had just short of ten times more appearances than anyone else in the (then) Shadow Cabinet. If anyone was invisible during that campaign, it was the Blairite tendency.

That's not an achievement. He was leader of the opposition and put in nearly one fifth of the effort of the PM, and the poor performance of any Labour member to campaign correctly is a reflection on how poor his party was in that referendum overall.

To say Corbyn was enthusiastic in any way in his campaign is just an outright lie. I saw a few of his appearances - they were as blatant a tick box exercise as humanly possible - nobody believed he meant a single word coming out of his mouth.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

Sorry - it may not have been clear, what I was saying is that Parliament should get a vote when the treaty is completed. I think this is important for two reasons - for a start, because having Parliamentary consent for it is vital, and secondly because a treaty of that magnitude and likely complexity has to be examined in detail by at least semi-independent people.

It should be debated in the Commons, what happens though if the vote is all over the place on the final treaty, and no conclusive agreement can be reached in the house?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Corbyn was by far the most prominent Labour politician campaigning for Remain; he had just short of ten times more appearances than anyone else in the (then) Shadow Cabinet. If anyone was invisible during that campaign, it was the Blairite tendency.

Where is he now? He seems completely anonymous.

 

[ToffeeDoug]

Sorry - it may not have been clear, what I was saying is that Parliament should get a vote when the treaty is completed. I think this is important for two reasons - for a start, because having Parliamentary consent for it is vital, and secondly because a treaty of that magnitude and likely complexity has to be examined in detail by at least semi-independent people.

Agreed, it is important there is a final sign-off on this. And all the bits of European law that Britain actually likes will be written into British law, again requiring Parliamentary consent.

 

[tsubaki]

That's not an achievement. He was leader of the opposition and put in nearly one fifth of the effort of the PM, and the poor performance of any Labour member to campaign correctly is a reflection on how poor his party was in that referendum overall.

To say Corbyn was enthusiastic in any way in his campaign is just an outright lie. I saw a few of his appearances - they were as blatant a tick box exercise as humanly possible - nobody believed he meant a single word coming out of his mouth.

Tubey, I appreciate this is you just doing your usual anti-Corbyn nonsense but please can you come up with some better arguments. It should surprise no-one honest that the man who called and ran the campaign for Remain was more prominent in it than most (indeed he had nearly three times as many appearances as Farage did).

Corbyn fought his own fight for Remain (despite his own well documented issues with the EU) and yet was vastly more prominent than anyone else in his party was, especially the internal opposition to him that you seem to rate so highly. They were far more pro-EU than he was, so why were they absent from the media for that time?

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Sorry - it may not have been clear, what I was saying is that Parliament should get a vote when the treaty is completed. I think this is important for two reasons - for a start, because having Parliamentary consent for it is vital, and secondly because a treaty of that magnitude and likely complexity has to be examined in detail by at least semi-independent people.

I personally don't see how the Govt can win this case.

The triggering of article 50 will automatically result in the overturning of the rights bestowed on the populous by the 1972 act, the planned repeal bill will come after the fact, as once article 50 is triggered then there's no going back.

They are seeking to do this under the guise of 'the will of the people' but the referendum was advisory not legally binding.

 

[tsubaki]

Where is he now? He seems completely anonymous.

Working on his reshuffle, and he probably has more sense than to get involved in this daft campaign by Miliband. In any case, John McDonnell set out what the Labour position was yesterday:

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

That's not an achievement. He was leader of the opposition and put in nearly one fifth of the effort of the PM, and the poor performance of any Labour member to campaign correctly is a reflection on how poor his party was in that referendum overall.

To say Corbyn was enthusiastic in any way in his campaign is just an outright lie. I saw a few of his appearances - they were as blatant a tick box exercise as humanly possible - nobody believed he meant a single word coming out of his mouth.

I went to one, he was as passionate as they come. No shadow of a doubt.

Must have been difficult for him, given that he did have objections about the EU turning into a right-wing superstate.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Sorry - it may not have been clear, what I was saying is that Parliament should get a vote when the treaty is completed. I think this is important for two reasons - for a start, because having Parliamentary consent for it is vital, and secondly because a treaty of that magnitude and likely complexity has to be examined in detail by at least semi-independent people.

I was aware of what you meant - and I still disagree. The terms ought to have been thrashed out and/or more provisos and choices inserted in the referendum before it was put to the poll. Instead, the MP's settled on a straight in or out choice.

The electorate knew it was a simple choice, and they voted accordingly. In or out. Nothing else matters now.

You can't order a plain cheese pizza then complain there's no other toppings or it's the wrong type of cheese. Nor can you send it back after taking a vote on what cheese/toppings you want. The pizza was ordered with the consent and consensus that the electorate was happy with the choices at the start.

And even if there were to be any vote then the electorate should be asked again - not the self-serving politicians who now whine because they didn't get their preferred result because they were far too complacent of the plebs.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

That's not an achievement. He was leader of the opposition and put in nearly one fifth of the effort of the PM, and the poor performance of any Labour member to campaign correctly is a reflection on how poor his party was in that referendum overall.

To say Corbyn was enthusiastic in any way in his campaign is just an outright lie. I saw a few of his appearances - they were as blatant a tick box exercise as humanly possible - nobody believed he meant a single word coming out of his mouth.

I agree with this, he was completely ineffective as a supposed Remain campaigner, probably because he's always been a euro sceptic and had no enthusiasm for the cause he was supposed to be championing.

 

[Tubey]

Tubey, I appreciate this is you just doing your usual anti-Corbyn nonsense but please can you come up with some better arguments. It should surprise no-one honest that the man who called and ran the campaign for Remain was more prominent in it than most (indeed he had nearly three times as many appearances as Farage did).

Corbyn fought his own fight for Remain (despite his own well documented issues with the EU) and yet was vastly more prominent than anyone else in his party was, especially the internal opposition to him that you seem to rate so highly. They were far more pro-EU than he was, so why were they absent from the media for that time?

Appearances aren't speeches. 'Appearance' means a news camera panned on him. That stat got (rightly) called out immediately as being misleading, just like his seats on trains debacle.

He led the party. The party as a whole were shambolic in their support for Remain. Indeed, the highest profile referendum campaigner, by a mile, was Gisela Stuart for Leave. The buck stops with him for that.

 

[tsubaki]

Appearances aren't speeches. 'Appearance' means a news camera panned on him. That stat got (rightly) called out immediately as being misleading, just like his seats on trains debacle.

He led the party. The party as a whole were shambolic in their support for Remain. Indeed, the highest profile referendum campaigner, by a mile, was Gisela Stuart for Leave. The buck stops with him for that.

That would be the Gisela Stuart who had 90 less appearances and who appeared in 1.6% of stories about the referendum? Do you really want to do this to yourself?