Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[Milkman]

Why do you think that Corbyn can appeal to the working class?

Because the guy has spent his whole political career fighting inequality. He's spent what little time he's had as Labour leader fighting austerity. He wants to in public services, to protect the NHS, de-privatise the railways, up corporation tax... I mean, the list goes on. It's fair to say his policies are favourable to the working class.

To bring it back to Everton pretty tenuously (God we need a signing to stop us talking about politics for a bit!) – it's like when Goodison gets on Ross Barkley's back, even though he's been shoved out onto the left wing (apt). Of course he looks crap if he's got 40,000 people booing him, but play him in his right position and get behind the lad and look how much better he plays. To me, this Labour coup is like bringing Barkley off at half-time before you even try him in his best position.

I'll stop with the football analogies now. It's just been a long time since I talked about Everton.

 

[Milkman]

Who wants a return to New Labour? Or is anything that isn't Corbyn New Labour now?

I want a good electable leader with good electable policies. Don't think Corbyn is that man.

Not at all. Miliband wasn't New Labour to me. He still had socialism at heart, but in the end it was so diluted it barely stood for anything, and the election showed that.

 

[moyeslovechild]

Because the guy has spent his whole political career fighting inequality. He's spent what little time he's had as Labour leader fighting austerity. He wants to in public services, to protect the NHS, de-privatise the railways, up corporation tax... I mean, the list goes on. It's fair to say his policies are favourable to the working class.

Alternatively, he's a middle class career politician who represents the type of studenty moral and intellectual superiority that most of the country scoffs at

Seriously mate, if you think the working class is crying out for someone to nationalise the railways and tax the rich people then you've got it so wrong

 

[Milkman]

Alternatively, he's a middle class career politician who represents the type of studenty moral and intellectual superiority that most of the country scoffs at

Seriously mate, if you think the working class is crying out for someone to nationalise the railways and tax the rich people then you've got it so wrong

No, you're right. Eagle, Watson, Hillary Benn are much more in touch in that respect... I think to call him a middle-class career politician is pretty misrepresentative, particularly when those opposing him are exactly that. But I presume that's besides point. The point about 'studenty moral and intellectual superiority' is particularly irksome though. I think that's quite a narrow-minded, self-serving opinion that doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

I genuinely don't understand the dislike of the man, to be honest. I always try to see both sides, but I'm really struggling with this one. There must be another dimension to it, other than the phrases 'he's unelectable' and 'we need a strong leader', surely?

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

He simply won't win an election off the back of a vocal bunch of Twitterati and hard left union members. Corbyn is unelectable.

The funny thing is that when Corbyn supporters are asked about him being able to win a general election, they start spouting about him having the party membership behind him, but you would think they were clever enough to realise that it's the rest of country he has to convince to vote for him, not the membership.

 

[tsubaki]

The funny thing is that when Corbyn supporters are asked about him being able to win a general election, they start spouting about him having the party membership behind him, but you would think they were clever enough to realise that it's the rest of country he has to convince to vote for him, not the membership.

This is a valid point. However I would point to the fact that, despite there being a consistent negative and incredibly unfair coverage of him from almost every media outlet (including the BBC, whose political editor has been actively assisting those against him) over a period of ten months, and an ongoing and extremely well-reported revolt from the defeated elements in the PLP, the Labour share of the vote as expressed in polls has gone up since the General Election.

In fact, if you look at his record as leader then he has consistently done better than we are all told he will (in Oldham, in the council elections etc) - the referendum is his first "defeat", and even then are very real questions about how much of the defeat he owns - he didn't call the referendum, or run the campaign, and the decision the country reached was far more in line with his beliefs than that of the PLP (most of whom actually lost the vote in their own constituencies).

In short this issue about his electability is a daft one, because the people who insist that he isn't electable are the ones who are most active in trying to ensure that he is unelectable. Whether or not many of his policies are acceptable is a decision for us the electorate, not for those who have placed themselves in judgement over us.

 

[ToffeeDoug]

Labour might have gained 300k new members, but has lost a truckload of votes and has little prospect of winning them back. In the 2015 GE, Labour polled 1.4m fewer votes compared to the 2001 GE. In 2015, the Tory Party won 2m more voters than Labour, and UKIP polled nearly 4m, many from one time Labour voters.

Regardless of who the leader is, Labour has to earn the right to attract support at the next GE. That starts with proper leadership and sound policy and gaining the public's attention and then trust. In his time in office, Corbyn hasn't really tackled anything of note, attempted no vigorous setting of the political agenda, made no mauling of the Tories and has made no positive difference to anything. I'm sure he is the decent, principled man we hear about, but for decades he has had a comfortable political career based on protest and campaigning, easily able to retain his values and never compromise them, as he has never had any real responsibility, held an office or had to make difficult decisions that sets reality against idealogy. Corbyn can be as left wing as he wants, I think it is important that the electorate has a real choice, but he has to fulfil the task of leadership with verve, passion, charisma, eloquence, energy etc. I haven't seen any of that.

 

[Milkman]

Labour might have gained 300k new members, but has lost a truckload of votes and has little prospect of winning them back. In the 2015 GE, Labour polled 1.4m fewer votes compared to the 2001 GE. In 2015, the Tory Party won 2m more voters than Labour, and UKIP polled nearly 4m, many from one time Labour voters.

Regardless of who the leader is, Labour has to earn the right to attract support at the next GE. That starts with proper leadership and sound policy and gaining the public's attention and then trust. In his time in office, Corbyn hasn't really tackled anything of note, attempted no vigorous setting of the political agenda, made no mauling of the Tories and has made no positive difference to anything. I'm sure he is the decent, principled man we hear about, but for decades he has had a comfortable political career based on protest and campaigning, easily able to retain his values and never compromise them, as he has never had any real responsibility, held an office or had to make difficult decisions that sets reality against idealogy. Corbyn can be as left wing as he wants, I think it is important that the electorate has a real choice, but he has to fulfil the task of leadership with verve, passion, charisma, eloquence, energy etc. I haven't seen any of that.

That's fair enough mate, I personally believe he can do that. Put a PLP that actively and energetically supports his leadership behind him and you'll see the difference.

It's unfair to attack his abilities as a leader when he's constantly having to reshuffle a cabinet that have conspired against him from the start. There's not a politician out there that could do better with the hand he's been dealt.

 

[ToffeeDoug]

That's fair enough mate, I personally believe he can do that. Put a PLP that actively and energetically supports his leadership behind him and you'll see the difference.

It's unfair to attack his abilities as a leader when he's constantly having to reshuffle a cabinet that have conspired against him from the start. There's not a politician out there that could do better with the hand he's been dealt.

But right from the start the PLP didn't vote for him and still don't want him now.

 

[Milkman]

But right from the start the PLP didn't vote for him and still don't want him now.

Rubbish innit. Quite a stalemate.

 

[neil999]

i think its key to remember that corbyn would never have got onto the ballot was it not for mps voting for him ONLY to broaden the debate, that wont happen again...

 

[tsubaki]

But right from the start the PLP didn't vote for him and still don't want him now.

They didn't (and don't), but its not like they are the best people to decide what is or what is not in the best interests of the party. In fact, given that many of them either presided over or represent a tendency that presided over two electoral defeats, the utter loss of Scotland, and managed to lose their own leadership election in an absolute landslide, I would argue they are some of the last people whose opinion should be valued about what political path to take in future.

I mean - if you want a peek into the mind of the people leading this coup, read this by a former senior member of the Blair team. That is what they are probably planning to do, if the coup succeeds. Do you think there will be more Labour votes as a result?

 

[moyeslovechild]

No, you're right. Eagle, Watson, Hillary Benn are much more in touch in that respect... I think to call him a middle-class career politician is pretty misrepresentative, particularly when those opposing him are exactly that. But I presume that's besides point. The point about 'studenty moral and intellectual superiority' is particularly irksome though. I think that's quite a narrow-minded, self-serving opinion that doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

Who said I want the next leader to be Eagle, Watson or Benn?

I'm just saying that there's a disconnect between him and the working class votes that you seem to think he can attract. Lefty political activism isn't a vote winner among the working class. The 'studenty moral and intellectual superiority' isn't what I particularly believe - it's what I think the perception of the public is of him, especially come election time with the media attacks and debates.

One thing is for sure, there is no coming back from what's happened in the last couple of days outside his core support. He's finished and I can't understand why he's clinging on. I honestly think he could do more for his causes with the profile he's gained from the outside.

 

[ToffeeDoug]

They didn't (and don't), but its not like they are the best people to decide what is or what is not in the best interests of the party. In fact, given that many of them either presided over or represent a tendency that presided over two electoral defeats, the utter loss of Scotland, and managed to lose their own leadership election in an absolute landslide, I would argue they are some of the last people whose opinion should be valued about what political path to take in future.

I mean - if you want a peek into the mind of the people leading this coup, read this by a former senior member of the Blair team. That is what they are probably planning to do, if the coup succeeds. Do you think there will be more Labour votes as a result?

All well and good but my comment was in response to an earlier comment saying that huge benefits would accrue when the PLP finally united behind Corbyn and argued a unified passionate stance to the nation. My point is that the PLP will never give Corbyn that support. You have taken my comment and applied it to a different context.

 

[tsubaki]

Who said I want the next leader to be Eagle, Watson or Benn?

I'm just saying that there's a disconnect between him and the working class votes that you seem to think he can attract. Lefty political activism isn't a vote winner among the working class. The 'studenty moral and intellectual superiority' isn't what I particularly believe - it's what I think the perception of the public is of him, especially come election time with the media attacks and debates.

One thing is for sure, there is no coming back from what's happened in the last couple of days outside his core support. He's finished and I can't understand why he's clinging on. I honestly think he could do more for his causes with the profile he's gained from the outside.

"Lefty political activism" might not be a vote winner amongst the working class, but some of his policies are - and in any case, if he can improve the democratic system in the party (especially over candidate selection) then we will start to see working class people actually getting into the Commons again, rather than parachuted-in careerists.