Hilary Benn Sacked From The Shadow Cabinet - wider political debate

[1966efc]

Wondering whether Corbyn will rebel against the party's policy on Trident next Monday. Would be a first, even for him, if he rebels against himself.

 

[tsubaki]

I'm pretty far away from Labour ideologically, but even I can't help but feel completely dumbfounded by what is happening. Democracy only works if there is a strong opposition... where is that now? What do people who want a viable alternative do?

Think about what you are saying here. "Democracy only works if there is a strong opposition" - in what way is a party that calls for slightly less austerity, slightly more public spending etc but agrees on the fundamentals of the government's argument a strong opposition?

Or to put it another way, we have had the top level of both major parties attempt to stop their own memberships on having a say on who leads them, one successfully and one (just) unsuccessfully. If you think that is democratic, or was done for democratic purposes, then please head to the dictionary forthwith.

 

[Mrk]

Think about what you are saying here. "Democracy only works if there is a strong opposition" - in what way is a party that calls for slightly less austerity, slightly more public spending etc but agrees on the fundamentals of the government's argument a strong opposition?

Or to put it another way, we have had the top level of both major parties attempt to stop their own memberships on having a say on who leads them, one successfully and one (just) unsuccessfully. If you think that is democratic, or was done for democratic purposes, then please head to the dictionary forthwith.

I think your problem here is you're misinterpreting what opposition means in this sense - it doesn't mean the complete opposite to what the other side are proposing, it means an alternative.

If somebody thinks we need the complete opposite, they can vote for the various trade unionist parties or the Socialist Workers Party. The don't do that, obviously, because it's not what most people want. But hey-ho.

 

[Brennan]

I have no issue with Labour MPs stating publicly that they have no confidence in their leader. The disgraceful part is trying to prevent the members of their own party for voting for the leader they have already chosen.

Snakes.

 

[blue61]

expect a LIB LAB pact if Corbyn gets back in!

That's my way of thinking, it's the early 80's all over again. Just need Corbyn to wear a donkey jacket at a ceremonial gig to complete the scene.

 

[rascal]

I think your problem here is you're misinterpreting what opposition means in this sense - it doesn't mean the complete opposite to what the other side are proposing, it means an alternative.

If somebody thinks we need the complete opposite, they can vote for the various trade unionist parties or the Socialist Workers Party. The don't do that, obviously, because it's not what most people want. But hey-ho.

I do wish Corbyn's fan boys would do exactly that.

 

[peteblue]

Where are all the Corbyn supporters now.........remember when I forecast what a bloody shambles he would be and all and sundry ( you know who you are) said how he would be wonderful after that useless Miliband.....well he's not, he never has been and he never will be....

Tonight.......following the vote Mr McTernan let rip at the members of the committee who backed Mr Corbyn's inclusion in the race, branding them "vandals".

He said: "Today was the day the Labour Party was stabbed in its heart and killed by the National Executive Committee.

"This is the end of the Labour Party - nothing more or less than that. And it is a terribly, terribly sad day for anyone who believes in opposition to the Tories, anyone who believes in the history and tradition of the Labour Party and all it has achieved. The vandals, the unions have destroyed the Labour party."

Rounding on Mr Corbyn, who he called an "anti-Western pacifist", he raged: "Jeremy Corbyn wants a Labour Party that can never ever win elections - that’s what he’s hell bent on achieving. Jeremy Corbyn is not a vote winner, he is a cult.

"It is a disgrace. Jeremy Corbyn is shameless because he has no commitment to the Labour Party or the Labour tradition of actually being a governing party. He is a man who has longed to be a minority, he’s about to make the Labour party a permanent minority party in politics.

"He will reduce the Labour vote below the level Ed Miliband took it to. He will never win an election. That is a recipe not just for electoral disaster, but for destruction."

 

[rascal]

Where are all the Corbyn supporters now.........remember when I forecast what a bloody shambles he would be and all and sundry ( you know who you are) said how he would be wonderful after that useless Miliband.....well he's not, he never has been and he never will be....

Tonight.......following the vote Mr McTernan let rip at the members of the committee who backed Mr Corbyn's inclusion in the race, branding them "vandals".

He said: "Today was the day the Labour Party was stabbed in its heart and killed by the National Executive Committee.

"This is the end of the Labour Party - nothing more or less than that. And it is a terribly, terribly sad day for anyone who believes in opposition to the Tories, anyone who believes in the history and tradition of the Labour Party and all it has achieved. The vandals, the unions have destroyed the Labour party."

Rounding on Mr Corbyn, who he called an "anti-Western pacifist", he raged: "Jeremy Corbyn wants a Labour Party that can never ever win elections - that’s what he’s hell bent on achieving. Jeremy Corbyn is not a vote winner, he is a cult.

"It is a disgrace. Jeremy Corbyn is shameless because he has no commitment to the Labour Party or the Labour tradition of actually being a governing party. He is a man who has longed to be a minority, he’s about to make the Labour party a permanent minority party in politics.

"He will reduce the Labour vote below the level Ed Miliband took it to. He will never win an election. That is a recipe not just for electoral disaster, but for destruction."

Very much so.

 

[peteblue]

So lads, do we still want Theresa May to call an early General Election.....can't wait for some people to answer tbh.......

 

[chicoazul]

Where are all the Corbyn supporters now.........remember when I forecast what a bloody shambles he would be and all and sundry ( you know who you are) said how he would be wonderful after that useless Miliband.....well he's not, he never has been and he never will be....

Tonight.......following the vote Mr McTernan let rip at the members of the committee who backed Mr Corbyn's inclusion in the race, branding them "vandals".

He said: "Today was the day the Labour Party was stabbed in its heart and killed by the National Executive Committee.

"This is the end of the Labour Party - nothing more or less than that. And it is a terribly, terribly sad day for anyone who believes in opposition to the Tories, anyone who believes in the history and tradition of the Labour Party and all it has achieved. The vandals, the unions have destroyed the Labour party."

Rounding on Mr Corbyn, who he called an "anti-Western pacifist", he raged: "Jeremy Corbyn wants a Labour Party that can never ever win elections - that’s what he’s hell bent on achieving. Jeremy Corbyn is not a vote winner, he is a cult.

"It is a disgrace. Jeremy Corbyn is shameless because he has no commitment to the Labour Party or the Labour tradition of actually being a governing party. He is a man who has longed to be a minority, he’s about to make the Labour party a permanent minority party in politics.

"He will reduce the Labour vote below the level Ed Miliband took it to. He will never win an election. That is a recipe not just for electoral disaster, but for destruction."

Rustled.

It's ace how all the right lament on Corbyn but are utterly terrified of him.

 

[tsubaki]

I think your problem here is you're misinterpreting what opposition means in this sense - it doesn't mean the complete opposite to what the other side are proposing, it means an alternative.

If somebody thinks we need the complete opposite, they can vote for the various trade unionist parties or the Socialist Workers Party. The don't do that, obviously, because it's not what most people want. But hey-ho.

Alright then - in what meaningful sense (other than simply because they are not physically the same) did Labour under Miliband, Brown or Blair offer an alternative?

 

[peteblue]

Rustled.

It's ace how all the right lament on Corbyn but are utterly terrified of him.

Terrified is the right word........we used to have governments with capable oppositions, now we just have government....

 

[tsubaki]

Where are all the Corbyn supporters now.........remember when I forecast what a bloody shambles he would be and all and sundry ( you know who you are) said how he would be wonderful after that useless Miliband.....well he's not, he never has been and he never will be....

Tonight.......following the vote Mr McTernan let rip at the members of the committee who backed Mr Corbyn's inclusion in the race, branding them "vandals".

He said: "Today was the day the Labour Party was stabbed in its heart and killed by the National Executive Committee.

"This is the end of the Labour Party - nothing more or less than that. And it is a terribly, terribly sad day for anyone who believes in opposition to the Tories, anyone who believes in the history and tradition of the Labour Party and all it has achieved. The vandals, the unions have destroyed the Labour party."

Rounding on Mr Corbyn, who he called an "anti-Western pacifist", he raged: "Jeremy Corbyn wants a Labour Party that can never ever win elections - that’s what he’s hell bent on achieving. Jeremy Corbyn is not a vote winner, he is a cult.

"It is a disgrace. Jeremy Corbyn is shameless because he has no commitment to the Labour Party or the Labour tradition of actually being a governing party. He is a man who has longed to be a minority, he’s about to make the Labour party a permanent minority party in politics.

"He will reduce the Labour vote below the level Ed Miliband took it to. He will never win an election. That is a recipe not just for electoral disaster, but for destruction."

er - we are on this thread. I just like it how you repeat ad nauseam the attacks of people who insist Corbyn would never win, right after he has utterly smashed them - again.

Ten months this coup was in the planning; they had all the media, almost all the PLP, all the non-union big donors, and look at how utterly they have failed.

Do you really trust that lot to run the country? To "hold the Government to account"*?

* McTernan is a big fan of tax avoidance, by the way

 

[magicjuan]

So Corbyn gets elected by what an uninvolved person sees as a rag tag of activists who hate the Labour Party, or at least what the modern incarnation of it represents.

And he then has the parliamentary authority to actually do absolutely nothing of consequence.

So, he then wants to have the authority to vet/select every PLP candidate in a future election, ergo, ensuring the probable wipe out of the said party he wants to be elected to lead.

Or have I misunderstood this on a frankly massive basis?

Asking for a friend.

First point I would make is the 'rebellion' had been in the offing for some time. I can understand that they waited due to the referendum, but to then rise up in such a snidey way with , and this is the whole tainted Blair, Campbell, Mandelson part, such a personally vindictive media campaign, on the back of a long list of personal attacks, at a time when the tories were at such a low ebb, was a kamikaze tactic. It was obvious to anyone with a bit of insight it would lead to a civil war and likely split.m
So, why? Why not wait, take advantage?

The first reasons were Corbyn's performance in the referendum, yet his stacked up better than others , in fact Angela Eagle herself was complaining that all of Corbyn's hard work was going unreported.

Then it was his unsuitability to win an election. Then his inability to lead the party, a party which, despite his huge majority from the members just 9 months ago, had its PLP majority apparently plotting against him from the get go.

When you understand the electing process of the Labour party, and how, under 'new labour', that process was usurped with PLP selected Blairites being parachuted in to safe seats, Woodward in St Helens (iirc) as an example, then it has been taken vack, because the Labour party was moving so far to the right it was diluting its purpose.
No repealing of anti union laws, chasing business and the Iraq war, all lead to the disenfranchising of core voters and supporters. This let in UKIP.

Now a shift back to social responsibility threatens 'new labour' thinkers and they are scared for their own positions.

Don't think the likes of Campbell, Blair and 'lord' Mandelson ever disappeared, they just slunk behind the curtain to pull the strings.

This could cause greater shockwaves tgrough the establishment than brexit. Corbyn is Harry Perkins from a Very British Coup...

 

[edge]

Rustled.

It's ace how all the right lament on Corbyn but are utterly terrified of him.

Yes about as terrifying to them as a bluebottle , bloody irritating but ultimately irrelevant and easily squashed in the
grand scene of things.