Holgate Racially Abused By Firmino - The Guardian

[SiEdmo]

I now have Liverpool fans saying they know me from the pub and have heard me being racist, and another backing them up as true on a twitter thread I dared to defend mason on, lovely behaviour

(funny that he knows me from the pub considering he lives in Ireland, and im from broadgreen)

 

[EFC78]

That's you choosing to interpret to suit your own narrative/agenda. The only "evidence" any on us are aware of is the Holgate's claim. That is it! If you or anyone else are aware of any other "evidence", please feel free to share with us.

A couple of points; the tribalism from both sides here has been unreal. The amount of Evertonians certain of Firmino's guilt and Liverpool fans certain Holgate has made false claims, beggars belief.

Firmino may have made a racist slur, but there absolutely is no evidence of that. It would seem strange that Firmino would launch into a tirade in one language, then turn to English to utter one word (THAT word) to Holgate, that only Holgate would hear, but no-one else around hears, plus nothing picked up by lip-reading interpreters (Kenny's head being the way does not prove that Firmino said anything!). Maybe that did happen, but if you park tribalism aside and try to be neutral for a moment, it seems unlikely. None of us know the character of Firmino (as we don't know him personally), but he doesn't seem to be the nasty ####er Suarez was, and it would seem a lot more out of character in comparison to Suarez (IMHO).

The name of this thread says it all as to where Everton fans lie with this; guilty!

On the other hand, Liverpool fans trawling through Holgate's twitter account to find something on him is pathetic and irrelevant. Also, them saying that Holgate has clearly falsely accused Firmino of racism to avoid being sent off for the shove. Again. maybe it's true and maybe not, but again there is no evidence to support this. Again, none of us know the character of Holgate (as we don't know him personally), but to suggest he'd falsely claim something so serious to avoid sanctions on the pitch are ludicrous, given the facts we have.

On the balance of probabilities, from what we know, from the "evidence" we have (Holgate's accusation), the most likely outcome is that Holgate thought he heard Firmino say THE word, but misheard what was said. The 193 pages of mostly confirming Firmino's guilt on here, is a joke!

Maybe there's a reason why EFC have not come out and publicly backed Holgate here. Suggestions that you're scared to take Liverpool all the way on this because they're the media darlings (as a lot on here seem to think) are a bit misguided, give what happened to Suarez.

This is looking a lot like RAWK at the moment (maybe BAWG).

Interesting that just you've joined today like a number of posters on this thread. But I actually agree with a lot of that to be fair. There has been a lot of hypocrisy on both sides.

 

[smeecanyousee]

No mate, this is "end of":

The facts are that the FA, should they have wanted to do so, had the right to state that there was no evidence to back up Holgate's claims and dismiss the case robustly (and rapidly). They did neither. They underlined the point that Holgate was justified to bring his suspicions up for investigation AND they found that, though the weight of evidence was not in sufficient volume to charge Firmino, it was not a case of an absence of evidence, merely insufficient supply of it.

No, they cannot state there is no evidence as Holgates allegation in itself constitutes evidence. That appears to be the only evidence - certainly from the FA statement. To say there is no evidence would mean there they would have to refute Holgates allegation which they cannot do for reasons I've already explained.

 

[davek]

to be fair, he's summarised it pretty well

you keep banging on about what the FA have said, realistically what do you want them to say?

"err there is no evidence to support holgates claim so we think he is chatting major turd and he is a pyar liar"

it is what it is, Holgate thinks he's heard something ( he very well might of ) but no one of the players around him, the ref or the cameras can back his claim up therefor firminho cannot be charged

what do you think should have happened? do you think because he made the claim they should have just banned him on holgates word because that ridiculous

I'm sticking as close to the wording of this FA statement as I can and letting you and others do all the tortuous interpretation of it.

Fact: the FA have stated the evidence is insufficient to proceed to a charge, that is not the same as saying there is no evidence.
Fact: the FA have underlined that Holgate was entirely justified to want his claim investigated and they found he was not wasting their time.
Fact: the FA statement is worded in a way that it emphasises no one is being 'cleared' of anything.

 

[davek]

Those members will all be banned by now Dave for having a reasoned debate.

I noticed a lot being called "effing Holgate sympathisers" by the Kopite Ultra tendency.

 

[davek]

I now have Liverpool fans saying they know me from the pub and have heard me being racist, and another backing them up as true on a twitter thread I dared to defend mason on, lovely behaviour

(funny that he knows me from the pub considering he lives in Ireland, and im from broadgreen)

Stay safe mate.

 

[everton1953]

you think racism is funny? wonder where you learned that POV

Racism is certainly not funny. But some of the comments on here are funny as toffeejack said. Of course if you lack any sense of humour then I suppose you will not see anything as funny. I thought the faces on some City fans at the end of the Wigan game were funny; as though someone had taken away their guaranteed right to a cup final place. Lighten up my friend.

 

[davek]

No, they cannot state there is no evidence as Holgates allegation in itself constitutes evidence. That appears to be the only evidence - certainly from the FA statement. To say there is no evidence would mean there they would have to refute Holgates allegation which they cannot do for reasons I've already explained.

A claim is not evidence.

FFS.

Claims are backed up by reasoning and evidence supports the reasoning.

 

[smeecanyousee]

I'm sticking as close to the wording of this FA statement as I can and letting you and others do all the tortuous interpretation of it.

Fact: the FA have stated the evidence is insufficient to proceed to a charge, that is not the same as saying there is no evidence.
Fact: the FA have underlined that Holgate was entirely justified to want his claim investigated and they found he was not wasting their time.
Fact: the FA statement is worded in a way that it emphasises no one is being 'cleared' of anything.

Fact: the FA have stated the evidence is insufficient to proceed to a charge, that is not the same as saying there is no evidence. Correct
Fact: the FA have underlined that Holgate was entirely justified to want his claim investigated and they found he was not wasting their time. Correct
Fact: the FA statement is worded in a way that it emphasises no one is being 'cleared' of anything. Incorrect. It emphasises nothing of the sort. It That's just your assumption reinforced by your overwhelming confirmation bias. He has been investigated for something where the lack of evidence leads them to a conclusion there is not enough of it to proceed with a charge.

 

[evertonarntwe]

I'm sticking as close to the wording of this FA statement as I can and letting you and others do all the tortuous interpretation of it.

Fact: the FA have stated the evidence is insufficient to proceed to a charge, that is not the same as saying there is no evidence- the "evidence" was holgates word was it not?

Fact: the FA have underlined that Holgate was entirely justified to want his claim investigated and they found he was not wasting their time. he was justified to make his claim if he believes he heard that, what do you want them to say? unless you have sufficient evidence do not bother coming to the FA, what sort of message does that send out to others who have been the victim of racial abuse

Fact: the FA statement is worded in a way that it emphasises no one is being 'cleared' of anything. again, of course they never if they cleared him of it they are basically calling Holgate a liar, they have done worded it so both Holgate and firminho don't come across as a liar which is fair

replys in bold

 

[smeecanyousee]

A claim is not evidence.

FFS.

Claims are backed up by reasoning and evidence supports the reasoning.

Really? From the FA statement

"The evidence for the allegation came from Holgate. During a fixture between Liverpool and Everton on 5 January 2018, Holgate alleged that he had heard Firmino use a discriminatory term towards him."

Or could you not read that bit ?

 

[davek]

replys in bold

My reply to yours in turn:

1/ No.

2/ I dont 'want' the FA to say anything. They've underlined that the case is complex and the claim of Holgate incapable of being dismissed as having no evidence to support it.

3/ Clearing Firmino wouldn't mean Holgate is a liar, it'd mean he'd misheard. But they CHOSE not to state that and clear Firmino.

 

[SiEdmo]

Stay safe mate.

I know mate I don't quite know how to react to that, do I get into a slanging match because they have said stuff that can make me look bad, or do I just swerve twitter entirely (deactivate it and look suspect), or do I ignore it

do these people not realise a footballer may get a ban and a telling off, but start slinging that round in real life and you can ruin peoples lives

utter scum

 

[evertonarntwe]

My reply to yours in turn:

1/ No. Is that your opinion or a fact? prove it

2/ I dont 'want' the FA to say anything. They've underlined that the case is complex and the claim of Holgate incapable of being dismissed as having no evidence to support it.

3/ Clearing Firmino wouldn't mean Holgate is a liar, it'd mean he'd misheard. But they CHOSE not to state that.- the point is Dave they DONT KNOW if Holgate has misheard, because there is no evidence, it's the same thing as calling him a liar, what they are saying is HE COULD have been racist but we can't prove it, saying Holgate has mis heard is saying he HASN'T been racist

 

[RomEFCRom]

I'm sticking as close the wording of this FA statement as I can and letting you and others do all the tortuous interpretation of it.

Fact: the FA have stated the evidence is insufficient to proceed to a charge, that is not the same as saying there is no evidence.
Fact: the FA have underlined that Holgate was entirely justified to want his claim investigated and they found he was not wasting their time.
Fact: the FA statement is worded in a way that it emphasises no one is being 'cleared' of anything.

It says:

"Having considered all of the available evidence, we consider it is not sufficient to raise a charge against Firmino."

Then further down it says:

"The evidence for the allegation came from Holgate."

My interpretation is that means that's the "only" evidence.