How can EFC shake off fan short-termism?

[Littlesue]

Bielsa if he is backed financially and the players give everything. Best football in 30 years since Wilkinson era and early O' Leary

And we got his assistant Corberan at West Brom and in 3 games we have seen such a turn around. Like a new set of players to what we had under Brucey.

 

[Rob17896]

Lampard could have approached things in exactly the same way, but with a fit DC-L, and likely would be mid table, and probably getting less criticism, despite having taken the same approach

So people are focused on the results rather than the method. The focus should be on the method, but that's very difficult to assess from the outside. But I guess what people can do is factor in things like the unavailability of DC-L or accept that full perfection is unlikely to be achieved in one transfer window (this summer, strengthening the squad pretty well, although not in the striker department, but are you going to nail every area in one shot?)

No he is not and no matter what has improved, without a forward line we will not get better. Need to nail that in January.

 

[billyblue80]

So what's the answer, sack him and appoint someone else?

Where Koeman, Benitez, Silva and Allardyce before him have not been good enough

Who will the next manager be who will be good enough and never have a bad run? Unless it's an all time great like Ancelotti, who we did attract, but are unlikely to attract at the moment, its difficult to see what the club could do differently re the manager recruitment policy

It seems blindingly obvious to me that this hire and fire approach isn't working

2 things that could change things for the better are:

i) The ownership - someone new with more money and different approach
ii) The fans - massive scope for improvement there obviously

Agree with this in theory we need one coach to rebuild the squad and that takes time and won't be easy especially under FFP restrictions. Chopping and changing hasn't helped us especially with the chronic board we have. I want Frank to work he galvanized us last season and has a better connection to the fans than most coaches have had but to get that time he needs results or at least enough results and a idea of what he's building towards as it is I don't see enough of either. I don't think it's time to sack him yet but serious questions need to be asked about his tactics and coaching. What's our style of play? Where are the attacking patterns? Why are we so poor at set pieces? We must make improvements in January and if we are still languishing and struggling results wise, I can't see him being here. That's the reality because we literally can't afford to go down as a club, the clock is ticking the time for excuses is running out.

 

[hallamblue]

It clearly isn't good enough

But is knee jerk sacking the current manager the answer to improving things, or is there a bigger picture to consider?

If you look at the poll on here, most people don't want the manager sacked. But they also don't want the players, coaching staff or manager to get away with abject performance. I think that's fair enough, and hopefully the players and staff will think about the reaction to the performance on Saturday, and use it to motivate themselves to up their game after the World Cup.

 

[hallamblue]

Agree with this in theory we need one coach to rebuild and that takes time and won't be easy especially under FFP restrictions. Chopping and changing isn't helped us especially with the chronic board we have. I want Frank to work he galvanized us last season and has a better connection to the fans than most coaches have had but to get that time he needs results or at least enough results and a idea of what he's building towards as it is I don't see enough of either. I don't think it's time to sack him yet but serious questions need to be asked about his tactics and coaching. We must make improvements in January and if we are still languishing and struggling results wise, I can't see him being here. That's the reality because we can't afford to go down as a club, the clock is ticking the time for excuses is running out.

He's not a coach, that's why he has Clement. Not all managers are coaches, and that's fine if they can motivate and inspire the players.

 

[HSWR]

The answer to short term ism is to look at the past several years.

We have got progressively worse when having a short term approach and as a result we have sacked several managers for downturn in form quite often in a second season following on intervention negatively by the board. If other clubs can have some element of modern day success when changing manager then the fact we haven't despite doing the same should be telling us all we need to know about a short term approach. Especially when another young coach in the league was given a long term approach in similar circumstances and has finally produced an end product after 3 years.

Every year fans blame the players week after week but forget about that when results aren't coming and then they blame the manager for not getting results from the same players almost literally from several managers ago.

 

[billyblue80]

He's not a coach, that's why he has Clement. Not all managers are coaches, and that's fine if they can motivate and inspire the players.

True but questions can still be asked of his tactics and why he changed from a 4231 to a 4141 ? Why he can't change tactics in game and why his subs are usually like for like. In terms of on field coaching if he isn't responsible questions need to be asked of his staff because whilst we have seen some defensive improvements we aren't seeing attacking patterns and we aren't seeing some basics in set pieces (have we even scored one?)or a style of play in ten months?

 

[B8's REVENGE]

Got a question for GOT:

Can anyone name a single manager in world football who'd walk through the door and all but guarantee a turnaround & future success at Everton? anyone?

I'm sure there's hundreds out there. The thing is you just have to be extremely great at picking a fella. So yeah that's unrealistic giving our board.


On a realistic level im sure you can narrow it down to a couple dozen. Managers with pedigrees. Ideally for coming into a terrible dressing room. Being a great motivator. Being able to pic the rogjt team for his plan no matter if he has to discard to first 11. Or just someone with experience of never being relegated and elevating poor sides. Or the outside shot of attracting someone with massive pedigree like carlo. Who just missed out on Europe and would of kicked on for sure.

Villa have done it with emery recently so it could have been done.

I agree its a monumental task with our bellends. But its a mix of that and picking the wrong manager. It can be done. Will it? Not likely. Carlo was the freak exception.

 

[Simon Buttle]

And we got his assistant Corberan at West Brom and in 3 games we have seen such a turn around. Like a new set of players to what we had under Brucey.

Watched him at Huddersfield, he is a very good coach him and he will get a PL job before long imo.

 

[Simon Buttle]

He's not a coach, that's why he has Clement. Not all managers are coaches, and that's fine if they can motivate and inspire the players.

That might be part of the issue as Clement's own attempts at management have ended up in disaster, I have always had slight concerns about him being here.

 

[APN_EFC]

The club has tried pretty much everything now re managers. We now have turned to a young, up and coming manager in Frank Lampard, who is now being turned on by some after some bad results

Is sacking manager after manager the answer? Or would the ability to weather bad runs, without wielding the axe, ultimately create more stability and result in some success?

Do some fans perhaps need to learn how to be more patient and resilient through bad runs?

Yes, we do need to be resilient, we do need to sign up to a long-term plan, as long as we're moving forward, but the club needs to give us something back in return.:

What if the club kept us in the loop and said:
We have a long-term plan, we are going to rebuild the infrastructure (staff), review the science, nutritiion, training, agendas, the injuries, and make sure that we are modern, and that we are learning from the best ideas currently in the football industry. We have a young manager who is also going to get professional development (what if we pay for him to visit top coaches or for us to have meetings with other top coaches of the world) - what if out of work great managers visit Finch Farm, what if players come in every so often and give talks, or we have motivational talks from people of different industries. What if we use yoga, strength building, meditation, focus on players' wellbeing, have social media support where the players learn to deal with online abuse, and learn to have some help on their psychological preparation, and menatla wellbeing....there are SO MANY THINGS WE CAN Do, which do not cost as much as f*ing £20m on Maupay.
What if we did clever, strategic moves, like become the most sustainable, environmentally friendly club in the PL, what if we were the BEST on fighting racism and homophobia, and we were the BEST on the way we treat with fans. What if the club actually changed dramatically, and reset... and actually communicated this to us....


In return, we could be patient, forgiving, support all our players no matter what, support them against other teams and fight for our corner. We can change our mentality where we don't expect to be in the top 4 every year but we sign up to the fact we are going to stay in the Premier League, then we're going to be top 10 comfortably for 2 years, then top 8 comfortably, then Europe and then top 4 in say 2026/27. That is a sustainable way of working.
Unfortunatley owners don't have the patience for this, but if they can work the finances that we are dependent on PL status, and not on Europe or anything fancy for now, then we'll build a sustained challenge in the future. We have to reinvent the club, and take the old culture, and make it match with new business, premier League requirements of commercial , short-term, international fans.
Our old culture is perfect anyway - an 'authentic', 'plucky', local rooted club with a never say die, aggressive, stylish brand of football - that was Everton at it's best, right? Also marketable in the modern commercial world.

Ok i feel better now rant over.

 

[APN_EFC]

Yes, we do need to be resilient, we do need to sign up to a long-term plan, as long as we're moving forward, but the club needs to give us something back in return.:

What if the club kept us in the loop and said:
We have a long-term plan, we are going to rebuild the infrastructure (staff), review the science, nutritiion, training, agendas, the injuries, and make sure that we are modern, and that we are learning from the best ideas currently in the football industry. We have a young manager who is also going to get professional development (what if we pay for him to visit top coaches or for us to have meetings with other top coaches of the world) - what if out of work great managers visit Finch Farm, what if players come in every so often and give talks, or we have motivational talks from people of different industries. What if we use yoga, strength building, meditation, focus on players' wellbeing, have social media support where the players learn to deal with online abuse, and learn to have some help on their psychological preparation, and menatla wellbeing....there are so many things we could do, which do not cost as much as £20m on Maupay.
What if we did clever, strategic moves, like become the most sustainable, environmentally friendly club in the PL, what if we were the BEST on fighting racism and homophobia, and we were the BEST on the way we treat with fans. What if the club actually changed dramatically, and reset... and actually communicated this to us....


In return, we could be patient, forgiving, support all our players no matter what, support them against other teams and fight for our corner. We can change our mentality where we don't expect to be in the top 4 every year but we sign up to the fact we are going to stay in the Premier League, then we're going to be top 10 comfortably for 2 years, then top 8 comfortably, then Europe and then top 4 in say 2026/27. That is a sustainable way of working.
Unfortunatley owners don't have the patience for this, but if they can work the finances that we are dependent on PL status, and not on Europe or anything fancy for now, then we'll build a sustained challenge in the future. We have to reinvent the club, and take the old culture, and make it match with new business, premier League requirements of commercial , short-term, international fans.
Our old culture is perfect anyway - an 'authentic', 'plucky', local rooted club with a never say die, aggressive, stylish brand of football - that was Everton at it's best, right? Also marketable in the modern commercial world.

Ok i feel better now rant over.

Edited if anyone's interested

Yes, we do need to be resilient, we do need to sign up to a long-term plan, as long as we're moving forward, but the club needs to give us something back in return.:

What if the club kept us in the loop and said:
We have a long-term plan, we are going to rebuild the infrastructure (staff), review the science, nutrition, training, agendas, the injuries, and make sure that we are modern, and that we are learning from the best ideas currently in the football industry.
We have a young manager who is also going to get professional development (what if we pay for him to visit top coaches or for us to have meetings with other top coaches of the world) - what if out-of-work great managers visit Finch Farm, what if great or ex- players come in every so often and give talks, or we have motivational talks from people of different industries.
What if we use yoga, strength building, meditation, focus on players' wellbeing, have social media support where the players learn to deal with online abuse, and learn to have some help on their psychological preparation, and mental wellbeing - there are so many things we could do, which do not cost as much as f*ing £20m on Maupay. (nothing personal against him!)
What if we did clever, strategic moves, like become the most sustainable, environmentally friendly club in the PL, what if we were the BEST on fighting racism and homophobia, and we were the BEST on the way we treat fans and genuinely involve them in the club.
What if the club actually changed dramatically, and reset... and actually communicated this to us....


In return, we could be patient, forgiving, support all our players no matter what, support them against other teams and fight for our corner. We can change our mentality where we don't expect to be in the top 4 every year but we sign up to the fact we are going to stay in the Premier League safely - whatever position - then we're going to be top 10 comfortably for 2 years, then top 8 comfortably, then Europe and then top 4 in say 2027/28 at the earliest. That is a sustainable way of working. We can be proud of all the other things the club is also good at, and proud of our Premier League status, in a world where only a few are allowed to survive. We are still only one of 5 or 6 to always have been in the premier league, and we can get better again, and make sure in the future we are always in the top 6 or 8. Unless China or India buys us out, nobody can match the top 6, so a sustainable growth is all we should hope for, and then when the bubble bursts, we'll be here with a sustainable, long-term plan.
And all of these 'extra', 'nice' things that i've listed above, they are attractions to players - if you look after the actual players and their families, and give them all of this, they will play better, they will sign for us, and they will see us as a genuine stepping stone in their careers, and on top of that we'll have an amazing stadium.

Unfortunately, owners don't have the patience for this, but if they can work out the finances to depend on PL survival only, and then we develop sustainably (all of my ideas will generate some income each year)...then we'll build a sustained challenge in the future. We have to reinvent the club, and take the old culture, and make it match with new commercial culture we are in now, with international fans that switch allegiance or choose their favourite club on the basis of anything.
Our old culture is perfect anyway - an 'authentic', 'plucky', local rooted club with a never say die, aggressive, stylish brand of football - that was Everton at its best, right? Also marketable in the modern commercial world.

Ok i feel better now rant over. Phew.

 

[billyblue80]

If you look at the poll on here, most people don't want the manager sacked. But they also don't want the players, coaching staff or manager to get away with abject performance. I think that's fair enough, and hopefully the players and staff will think about the reaction to the performance on Saturday, and use it to motivate themselves to up their game after the World Cup.

Agree. Also in response to above whether I call him a coach or a manager the point remains he has to improve

 

[B8's REVENGE]

Edited if anyone's interested

Yes, we do need to be resilient, we do need to sign up to a long-term plan, as long as we're moving forward, but the club needs to give us something back in return.:

What if the club kept us in the loop and said:
We have a long-term plan, we are going to rebuild the infrastructure (staff), review the science, nutrition, training, agendas, the injuries, and make sure that we are modern, and that we are learning from the best ideas currently in the football industry.
We have a young manager who is also going to get professional development (what if we pay for him to visit top coaches or for us to have meetings with other top coaches of the world) - what if out-of-work great managers visit Finch Farm, what if great or ex- players come in every so often and give talks, or we have motivational talks from people of different industries.
What if we use yoga, strength building, meditation, focus on players' wellbeing, have social media support where the players learn to deal with online abuse, and learn to have some help on their psychological preparation, and mental wellbeing - there are so many things we could do, which do not cost as much as f*ing £20m on Maupay. (nothing personal against him!)
What if we did clever, strategic moves, like become the most sustainable, environmentally friendly club in the PL, what if we were the BEST on fighting racism and homophobia, and we were the BEST on the way we treat fans and genuinely involve them in the club.
What if the club actually changed dramatically, and reset... and actually communicated this to us....


In return, we could be patient, forgiving, support all our players no matter what, support them against other teams and fight for our corner. We can change our mentality where we don't expect to be in the top 4 every year but we sign up to the fact we are going to stay in the Premier League safely - whatever position - then we're going to be top 10 comfortably for 2 years, then top 8 comfortably, then Europe and then top 4 in say 2027/28 at the earliest. That is a sustainable way of working. We can be proud of all the other things the club is also good at, and proud of our Premier League status, in a world where only a few are allowed to survive. We are still only one of 5 or 6 to always have been in the premier league, and we can get better again, and make sure in the future we are always in the top 6 or 8. Unless China or India buys us out, nobody can match the top 6, so a sustainable growth is all we should hope for, and then when the bubble bursts, we'll be here with a sustainable, long-term plan.
And all of these 'extra', 'nice' things that i've listed above, they are attractions to players - if you look after the actual players and their families, and give them all of this, they will play better, they will sign for us, and they will see us as a genuine stepping stone in their careers, and on top of that we'll have an amazing stadium.

Unfortunately, owners don't have the patience for this, but if they can work out the finances to depend on PL survival only, and then we develop sustainably (all of my ideas will generate some income each year)...then we'll build a sustained challenge in the future. We have to reinvent the club, and take the old culture, and make it match with new commercial culture we are in now, with international fans that switch allegiance or choose their favourite club on the basis of anything.
Our old culture is perfect anyway - an 'authentic', 'plucky', local rooted club with a never say die, aggressive, stylish brand of football - that was Everton at its best, right? Also marketable in the modern commercial world.

Ok i feel better now rant over. Phew.

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

Yes, we do need to be resilient, we do need to sign up to a long-term plan, as long as we're moving forward, but the club needs to give us something back in return.:

What if the club kept us in the loop and said:
We have a long-term plan, we are going to rebuild the infrastructure (staff), review the science, nutritiion, training, agendas, the injuries, and make sure that we are modern, and that we are learning from the best ideas currently in the football industry. We have a young manager who is also going to get professional development (what if we pay for him to visit top coaches or for us to have meetings with other top coaches of the world) - what if out of work great managers visit Finch Farm, what if players come in every so often and give talks, or we have motivational talks from people of different industries. What if we use yoga, strength building, meditation, focus on players' wellbeing, have social media support where the players learn to deal with online abuse, and learn to have some help on their psychological preparation, and menatla wellbeing....there are SO MANY THINGS WE CAN Do, which do not cost as much as f*ing £20m on Maupay.
What if we did clever, strategic moves, like become the most sustainable, environmentally friendly club in the PL, what if we were the BEST on fighting racism and homophobia, and we were the BEST on the way we treat with fans. What if the club actually changed dramatically, and reset... and actually communicated this to us....


In return, we could be patient, forgiving, support all our players no matter what, support them against other teams and fight for our corner. We can change our mentality where we don't expect to be in the top 4 every year but we sign up to the fact we are going to stay in the Premier League, then we're going to be top 10 comfortably for 2 years, then top 8 comfortably, then Europe and then top 4 in say 2026/27. That is a sustainable way of working.
Unfortunatley owners don't have the patience for this, but if they can work the finances that we are dependent on PL status, and not on Europe or anything fancy for now, then we'll build a sustained challenge in the future. We have to reinvent the club, and take the old culture, and make it match with new business, premier League requirements of commercial , short-term, international fans.
Our old culture is perfect anyway - an 'authentic', 'plucky', local rooted club with a never say die, aggressive, stylish brand of football - that was Everton at it's best, right? Also marketable in the modern commercial world.

Ok i feel better now rant over.

Very well said