How can EFC shake off fan short-termism?

[barneygumble]

The big blunder was getting in Raffa when we could have got Moyes back in. But we’ve made our bed for the millionth time so should lie in it.

Moyes wasn’t and still isn’t the answer.

But Christ knows what they were thinking g going for Benitez. He by all means, wasn’t the catalyst, we’d been failing for years, but it was our signal that we’d accepted mediocrity.

As others have said, it probably comes down to the board. Until the board go, the fans are stuck with daily reminders daily about “We’ve had some good times”, finger pointing, lies and deceit. We’re a laughing stock and when you’re ridiculed regularly for 25-years or so, then it takes it’s toll.

Moyes was part of changing fortunes, but equally became part of the problem, his “small club” approach, was a huge hindrance, which was a problem we couldn’t shake for years, sadly, we replaced it with worse.

 

[B8's REVENGE]

Believe me the worst thing possible is to go down.

 

[Egil Olsen]

One of the symptoms of a club that constantly changes it’s manager is the manager ends up having less impact on the players. It undermines the manager to the point that the players don’t have to listen if they don’t want because they know they’ll outlast the gaffer.
One of the reasons Fergie got the best out of his squads for years is he was in charge and no one dared question it.

The other symptom is we get half arsed attempts at rebuilding squads without seeing it through to the end so every new manager that comes in is never going to have their own team.

Keep doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity.

So if you practice football every day, you're not going to develop? If you study every day, won't the likelihood of doing better in school increase? (By the way, this is not a quote from Einstein)

You can think of it another way. We have a bowl, and in it there are 6 bad candidates, 2 candidates who are completely average, and 2 candidates who are very good managers. Because every time we draw a bad candidate, the probability that we will draw a good candidate will increase the next time we draw. The only question is how quickly we manage to see through the bad manager, and prevent the manager from causing as much damage as possible.

How can we know if the manager is bad? Well, we use data and logic. E.g. if Rafael was considered a bad manager based on the results, well, then someone who has performed worse must also be considered a bad manager. Ok, the results are not good, but maybe there are some positive signs if we look more closely at the data? Then we look at the data that is usually used by experts in the field, and we see that this is really bad. It's actually worse than Rafael. But hey, FL's football is entertaining, or at least it has a distinctive style. We see that FL is doing a good job on the training field in implementing its ideas. Obviously Everton practice a lot on long passes, and yes that's right, we top that statistic, but beyond that it's hard to find anything recognisable. But Lampard surely has a CV that shows that he has the experience and competence to turn such a situation around? No, there is nothing on his CV that shows that he makes clubs better. He also has very limited experience.

So the final question is, what exactly is madness? Is there any indication that Lampard is 1 of the 2 good candidates, or is it more likely that he is one of the 6 bad candidates?

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

I get the sentiment about changing managers. But if you are going to give a manager time especially when prem survival as at stake ideally you'd like it to be a manager with a track record of success or record of keeping teams up.

I dont know what up and coming means. I'd describe that to a manger who has overachieved at so called smaller clubs like getting a club promoted a couple times or turning a bottom club into a regular europa club, something like that

Charm goes a long way its as true in any field I guess.

Up and coming in this instance could mean a young manager, still with things to prove

And how much of the way people are looking at the manager here is related to results / table position?

Say if FL had done everything identically, but DC-L had stayed fit, we might have a few more goals and be higher up the table, maybe even in the top half. And the actions then might be drawing praise rather than criticism from some, despite being identical

There's a book on this called Fooled by Randomness

Surely people have to look wider than the manager

 

[blue61]

Up and coming in this instance could mean a young manager, still with things to prove

And how much of the way people are looking at the manager here is related to results / table position?

Say if FL had done everything identically, but DC-L had stayed fit, we might have a few more goals and be higher up the table, maybe even in the top half. And the actions then might be drawing praise rather than criticism from some, despite being identical

There's a book on this called Fooled by Randomness

Surely people have to look wider than the manager

Higher.

 

[GrandOldSte117]

Up and coming in this instance could mean a young manager, still with things to prove

And how much of the way people are looking at the manager here is related to results / table position?

Say if FL had done everything identically, but DC-L had stayed fit, we might have a few more goals and be higher up the table, maybe even in the top half. And the actions then might be drawing praise rather than criticism from some, despite being identical

There's a book on this called Fooled by Randomness

Surely people have to look wider than the manager

I'd understand that argument if we were exceeding in all other areas but scoring. And we're literally bottom is every single metric under Lampard

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

I'd understand that argument if we were exceeding in all other areas but scoring. And we're literally bottom is every single metric under Lampard

'Literally bottom on every single metric' is an extreme statement - is that the case? Every metric, bottom? Goals against?

But how could we have come to a better position than the one we're currently in? Appointed Pereira?

Is the issue actually expectations? That once a club reaches a certain level (e.g. winning the league in the 80's), that fan expectations are forever then set at a level where nothing will be good enough unless that's repeated?

But in reality, is the club in a different place now and so a reset of mentality is required? We may need to grind things out through some difficult times to incrementally get back to a decent level

 

[LocalNative]

The club has tried pretty much everything now re managers. We now have turned to a young, up and coming manager in Frank Lampard, who is now being turned on by some after some bad results

Is sacking manager after manager the answer? Or would the ability to weather bad runs, without wielding the axe, ultimately create more stability and result in some success?

Do some fans perhaps need to learn how to be more patient and resilient through bad runs?

What about Lampard as a 'young, up and coming manager' makes him so special as opposed to every other player-turned-manager? He's charmed his way into Evertonian's heads despite having the WORST win % since Kendall's second spell in charge.

It's not fan short-termism, it's bleedingly obvious he's not a good enough manager.

All the excuses about the transfer window, he was happy with the work done: "The plan was – can we bring more personality in the team? Can we be more solid at the back? Can we bring more youth that will develop and get better? I think we have done that. Now it’s up to us – and me – to work and show that we are doing a good job.”

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

What about Lampard as a 'young, up and coming manager' makes him so special as opposed to every other player-turned-manager? He's charmed his way into Evertonian's heads despite having the WORST win % since Kendall's second spell in charge.

It's not fan short-termism, it's bleedingly obvious he's not a good enough manager.

All the excuses about the transfer window, he was happy with the work done: "The plan was – can we bring more personality in the team? Can we be more solid at the back? Can we bring more youth that will develop and get better? I think we have done that. Now it’s up to us – and me – to work and show that we are doing a good job.”

So what's the answer, sack him and appoint someone else?

Where Koeman, Benitez, Silva and Allardyce before him have not been good enough

Who will the next manager be who will be good enough and never have a bad run? Unless it's an all time great like Ancelotti, who we did attract, but are unlikely to attract at the moment, its difficult to see what the club could do differently re the manager recruitment policy

It seems blindingly obvious to me that this hire and fire approach isn't working

2 things that could change things for the better are:

i) The ownership - someone new with more money and different approach
ii) The fans - massive scope for improvement there obviously

 

[Toffe3m4n]

if you employ someone and they are crap - you sack them

frank lampard is crap - enough said

no amount of time in the world is gonna turn it around for him

You simply don't know that at all and this is exactly the point.

It's your opinion - and it's highly reactionary. It's something that many Everton fans have been accustomed to now unfortunately.

 

[Toffe3m4n]

Got a question for GOT:

Can anyone name a single manager in world football who'd walk through the door and all but guarantee a turnaround & future success at Everton? anyone?

 

[RomanReigns]

You simply don't know that at all and this is exactly the point.

It's your opinion - and it's highly reactionary. It's something that many Everton fans have been accustomed to now unfortunately.

I can’t see the future but I can see how crap he has managed this current Everton team that I have zero confidence in his management ability

 

[Ron manager]

Short termism is what makes footy interesting the mind-numbing tedium of modern football provides nothing.

Look what's happening with Potter at Chelsea the fella has hardly had time to change his underwear and they want him out - simply marvelous. Just waiting for Villa to lose and voodoo dolls to appear on the Hagley Rd of Unai Emrai to confirm we are on our way to the ultimate goal of not sacking but hanging managers.

Short termism is Darwinism in full effect

 

[LocalNative]

So what's the answer, sack him and appoint someone else?

Where Koeman, Benitez, Silva and Allardyce before him have not been good enough

Who will the next manager be who will be good enough and never have a bad run? Unless it's an all time great like Ancelotti, who we did attract, but are unlikely to attract at the moment, its difficult to see what the club could do differently re the manager recruitment policy

It seems blindingly obvious to me that this hire and fire approach isn't working

2 things that could change things for the better are:

i) The ownership - someone new with more money and different approach
ii) The fans - massive scope for improvement there obviously

?????????????

You really saying the fans are to blame for this mess?

And more culpable than the manager who trains the players and puts them out there to play every week?

 

[Bigduke1234]

So you'd recommend a continuation of the hire and fire approach?

One that Ronald Koeman, Rafael Benitez, Marco Silva and Sam Allardyce have all fallen foul of to date

Maybe we should run an experiment, where the fans remain patient through a bad run, and see what happens? It may pay dividends over time....

I’d recommend not having a go at the fans for rightfully pointing out that losing 7-1 to Bournemouth on aggregate isn’t good enough