How can EFC shake off fan short-termism?

[Legend Barry Horne]

Blaming fans for being annoyed at that disgusting display is so stupid. The majority of Everton fans are backing Lampard but can you blame those who want him out? We've won three games this season, four if you count our eeked out win over Fleetwood, and we don't look any better than last season. We've conceded 7 goals to Bournemouth and don't look like developing a style of play any time soon. Let's not be more divisive by creating a mentality of those who want change are traitors.

Why not take a bigger picture view and aim to provide the team with a stable platform of support from which to build success over the longer term?

 

[LeeCarsley]

Why not take a bigger picture view and aim to provide the team with a stable platform of support from which to build success over the longer term?

Support requires something of merit to earn it, otherwise it's blind faith.

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

Support requires something of merit to earn it, otherwise it's blind faith.

So what's the best approach then - sack the manager if there's a bad run? Then find another manager, and then sack them if they have a string of bad results?

Do you think there would be an advantage in giving someone the opportunity to build something over time?

 

[LeeCarsley]

So what's the best approach then - sack the manager if there's a bad run? Then find another manager, and then sack them if they have a string of bad results?

Do you think there would be an advantage in giving someone the opportunity to build something over time?

The point is what is Lampard trying to build? The style of play isn't better than last season, we are 'defending' better in that we are far more busy in defense but we're still conceding an awful lot of shots so it isn't sustainable. We aren't scoring, we aren't defending, on statistics we are one of the worst teams in the league and a simple watch of our games confirms that. The current manager has spent quite a bit in the summer with the funds from the sale of our best player, and while on an induvial level those players are much better than the ones we had before, the results haven't picked up at all. We now have to reconcile the fact that we are going into xmas 17th, with 14 points, 11 goals and 17 conceded. The same amount of wins as Nottingham Forest, Southampton. I'm all for backing a manager, but the question remains is Lampard a manager who DESERVES to be backed? Or is this just wishful thinking and sentiment because of his good oratory skills and the scenes when we beat Palace last season.

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

The point is what is Lampard trying to build? The style of play isn't better than last season, we are 'defending' better in that we are far more busy in defense but we're still conceding an awful lot of shots so it isn't sustainable. We aren't scoring, we aren't defending, on statistics we are one of the worst teams in the league and a simple watch of our games confirms that. The current manager has spent quite a bit in the summer with the funds from the sale of our best player, and while on an induvial level those players are much better than the ones we had before, the results haven't picked up at all. We now have to reconcile the fact that we are going into xmas 17th, with 14 points, 11 goals and 17 conceded. The same amount of wins as Nottingham Forest, Southampton. I'm all for backing a manager, but the question remains is Lampard a manager who DESERVES to be backed? Or is this just wishful thinking and sentiment because of his good oratory skills and the scenes when we beat Palace last season.

The summer recruitment was pretty good, other than getting in 1-2 good forward players, which is the big failing. And then DC-L keeps getting injured. We're a small number of goals off being in the top half and that's the main difference

Lampard could have done everything exactly the same as he has, but with DCL remaining fit and scoring maybe 4 more goals that would have us in the top half. And despite doing everything exactly the same, he wouldn't be criticised as much, purely because people are looking at results rather than what's actually going on

Have you read the book Fooled by Randomness? It's about this sort of thing

 

[LeeCarsley]

The summer recruitment was pretty good, other than getting in 1-2 good forward players, which is the big failing. And then DC-L keeps getting injured. We're a small number of goals off being in the top half and that's the main difference

But, it will be possible to shoot holes in any team performances and manager strategy for varying reasons when the team is on a bad run, so where does this end. Moyes had time early on and that worked pretty well

After Moyes helped us avoid relegation he finished 7th, and in November he had us in the champions league places. There were plenty of times he could have been sacked the next season, but let's not pretend his and Lampard's scenarios are at all comparable. And adding 1-2 forward players won't stop us conceding 20 shots a game. Lampard needs to change the approach or else it fan short-termism won't matter at all.

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

Moyes had a couple of poor seasons early on, but had a lot of time

Lampard certainly needs to bring in good attacking players ASAP

But again, is sacking him the answer? Is it always just about the manager?

How can the fans help the situation?

 

[CalBuckeye_Rob]

Moyes had a couple of poor seasons early on, but had a lot of time

Lampard certainly needs to bring in good attacking players ASAP

But again, is sacking him the answer? Is it always just about the manager?

How can the fans help the situation?

How does fans ignoring failure help? The manager and players on any team are decided by others. Those others put together a team and fans watch what they do. Based on those observations they have opinions. Fans expect to see improvement. When they see the team getting worse they are unhappy and say so. When you almost got relegated the season before and get worse, they have reason to be alarmed. If you suck in American pro sports they give you a high draft choice to hopefully find new talent that changes things. In the Premier League they eject you out of the league as your reward.

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

How does fans ignoring failure help? The manager and players on any team are decided by others. Those others put together a team and fans watch what they do. Based on those observations they have opinions. Fans expect to see improvement. When they see the team getting worse they are unhappy and say so. When you almost got relegated the season before and get worse, they have reason to be alarmed. If you suck in American pro sports they give you a high draft choice to hopefully find new talent that changes things. In the Premier League they eject you out of the league as your reward.

Would it help if those fans considered failure over a long time horizon and the reasons for that?

What should the club be doing differently in the way it is finding and appointing managers?

If they couldn’t do much better, then is there a problem with expectations?

Could fans be more resilient, weathering bad runs without becoming negative, to help the team build a foundation for success over the mid term?

All others in this picture need to be resilient and positive, even when things are difficult. Why should the same not be expected of those sitting by the side of the pitch at matches who are part of the Everton group?

 

[CalBuckeye_Rob]

Would it help if those fans considered failure over a long time horizon and the reasons for that?

What should the club be doing differently in the way it is finding and appointing managers?

If they couldn’t do much better, then is there a problem with expectations?

Could fans be more resilient, weathering bad runs without becoming negative, to help the team build a foundation for success over the mid term?

All others in this picture need to be resilient and positive, even when things are difficult. Why should the same not be expected of those sitting by the side of the pitch at matches who are part of the Everton group?

If it gives a fan less anxiety to not be upset by bad outcomes, then go for it. I am sure there were plenty of positive Portsmouth fans that watched their team collapse one level at a time in good spirits. Has that helped the team get better?

I am a fan of the Cleveland Browns. They have sucked for many years. They have had stupid owners that have hired stupid general managers that have hire stupid coaches and drafted bad players. Fans have weathered it all. It hasn't made the team not suck. Fans think every year will be a new beginning. It hasn't made the team not suck. They buy tickets, they buy merchandise and they show up at road games to cheer. The team still sucks. Fans of the team don't feel good about that. That is what fans do. You won't change that. Ever.

 

[mumwasablue]

I think there’s just a growing group of fans, certainly match going ones, who are already moody before they hit the turnstiles. It’s toxic before it’s even begun.

Done a few this year, and the atmosphere is just hostile and it really doesn’t help the situation.

The others I think are just frustrated. Spend hard earned money to watch performances like that and on Wednesday.

For me, I just find it really disheartening that I can watch Newcastle dismantle Chelsea with ease, Brentford spring a result against City, Forest beat Liverpool. Leeds and Leicester playing entertaining football.

Then there’s us… we just play rigid, boring and dull football. It’s been this way since Martinez era, and I don’t know how we fix it?

Everton’s a big part of my life and when I get excited through the week to see us turn up line that, I feel like losing my head. It’s garbage. I don’t care if we’re rubbish, I just want a side which will run through brick walls for the team.

I was at Spurs and Wolves this week and rather see Leeds win. Like a lot that travel home and away you want ambition at board level and progress on and off the pitch. Don't be fooled that we enjoy losing and having entertaining football,winning and keeping clean sheets like Arsenal is far more fun. Few clubs going through the process next 6 weeks is going to interesting .

 

[bluerobert]

If it gives a fan less anxiety to not be upset by bad outcomes, then go for it. I am sure there were plenty of positive Portsmouth fans that watched their team collapse one level at a time in good spirits. Has that helped the team get better?

I am a fan of the Cleveland Browns. They have sucked for many years. They have had stupid owners that have hired stupid general managers that have hire stupid coaches and drafted bad players. Fans have weathered it all. It hasn't made the team not suck. Fans think every year will be a new beginning. It hasn't made the team not suck. They buy tickets, they buy merchandise and they show up at road games to cheer. The team still sucks. Fans of the team don't feel good about that. That is what fans do. You won't change that. Ever.

In fairness though mate you’re comparing a team in a sport that doesn’t have relegation to a team in a sport that does. What’s the big deal in NFL if your team is consistently bad. There’s no consequence for that. Those fans are still turning up watching their team play the same rivals week in week out, year in, year out. Here we're talking about a poorly ran club that could fall out of the league, if it does it will end Everton.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Moyes had a couple of poor seasons early on, but had a lot of time

Lampard certainly needs to bring in good attacking players ASAP

But again, is sacking him the answer? Is it always just about the manager?

How can the fans help the situation?

If Lampard finished 7th we'd be willing to give him more time I'm sure. People seem to forget that the Moyes trajectory would be this year going really well and then some struggles.

 

[barneygumble]

I was at Spurs and Wolves this week and rather see Leeds win. Like a lot that travel home and away you want ambition at board level and progress on and off the pitch. Don't be fooled that we enjoy losing and having entertaining football,winning and keeping clean sheets like Arsenal is far more fun. Few clubs going through the process next 6 weeks is going to interesting .

You’re a good summer away from st least progressing.

We play ugly, win or lose. We’ve just recruited horrendously over the years and we’re just lacking so much creativity.

No one wants to lose, but had I just witnessed my side go to Spurs and score for fun, I’d be a lot more relaxed about my chances of success. 3-4 good defenders and you’ll be fine.

Meanwhile we can’t attack or defend.

It’s a lot harder to buy attacking players, full of confidence.

 

[CalBuckeye_Rob]

In fairness though mate you’re comparing a team in a sport that doesn’t have relegation to a team in a sport that does. What’s the big deal in NFL if your team is consistently bad. There’s no consequence for that. Those fans are still turning up watching their team play the same rivals week in week out, year in, year out. Here we're talking about a poorly ran club that could fall out of the league, if it does it will end Everton.

Agree. So there is even more emotional commitment if your team can potentially cease to exist in its present form almost overnight. A number of fans are trying to come to grips with the unthinkable--relegation. The theme of the thread is whether the fans somehow have created the current mess and if they changed their thinking then that would ultimately make the team better. Some fans are in the 7 stages of grief and have passed through denial and anger.

The Browns didn't get relegated but actually got moved out of town in the mid-1990s so the City had no team until the fans went bats**t crazy and got the NFL to give them a new franchise in 1999. After 20!+ years of bad teams, many of us wonder if no team might have been better for our mental health.