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2018/19 Idrissa Gueye

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Kever10 said:
No, because if you believe some people, that would be every week, and we don't play well every week, and he certainly doesn't.

People use his work rate and the ground he covers as examples of things he does well, but the reality is, he only has to cover that ground because his reading of the game and positioning is so bad in the 1st place.

Take their goal yesterday, he carried the ball, held onto it too long, rushed his pass, and the team were then flat footed and too far forward, which meant Newcastle were able to spring forward, completely bypass him, get in behind and boom, we're 0-1 down.

My nerves are gone every time he has the ball in that deep lying position between the defensive line and halfway, because I don't trust him on the ball. He regularly misplaces passes or loses possession there. He is genuinely not good enough on the ball to play that role, not in his ability on the ball, his passing or in his vision. Nor is he any good in the final 3rd. So his only strength, the ground he covers, also becomes his weakness, as it regularly draws him out of position and leaves huge gaps. This is not a new thing either.

He also makes so many rash and clumsy challenges in stupid or dangerous positions, so honestly, this whole "Best DM in the league" argument is a complete mystery to me.

If we can't do better than him, it says more about us than it does about him.
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I think you're significantly over exaggerating his weaknesses. His passing is no where near as poor as some make out for a start, it has just been particularly poor in the last 2 games. He has a pass completion % of 85% - surely if he was so bad at passing, it'd be much lower? James Milner for example has the same pass completion % of 85%, the best in the league in Gana's position are at 88% - Kante and Fernandinho. That's not to say that his passing isn't a weakness, but he's not as awful as is being made out.

As for the rest of his game, you are doing him a disservice by saying he makes rash and clumsy challenges. It's part of his game to attempt tackles to win the ball back and he makes so many during the game which have a positive impact. He protects the back 4 very well and when we play with a high intensity (which to my knowledge is what the fans want), we play our best football and a huge part of that intensity comes from Gana.

A lot of judgements have been made about last night but we struggled against a team that came for a draw and made life difficult. Gana was excellent in about 4 of the 5 games before the derby.
 
ArtetaMoney said:
You’d rather have a defensive midfielder that scores a few goals a season, than one who tops the league interceptions and tackles stats every season?
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@Kever10 i posted a few weeks back, about an Everton fan on Twitter putting up a table of the top 15 midfielders with the best tackling stats. Gana was top, Not one midfielder from the top 6 was on the list, which basically proves your point.

We had 30% possession at Chelsea the other week, we aren’t going to be winning at the top 6 very often with them possession stats. I’m with you @Kever10 give me a all round midfielder over gana, every day of the week. It seems like to some people, to be a top class midfielder, all you need to do is tackle.
 
Stephenlloyd said:
@Kever10 i posted a few weeks back, about an Everton fan on Twitter putting up a table of the top 15 midfielders with the best tackling stats. Gana was top, Not one midfielder from the top 6 was on the list, which basically proves your point.

We had 30% possession at Chelsea the other week, we aren’t going to be winning at the top 6 very often with them possession stats. I’m with you @Kever10 give me a all round midfielder over gana, every day of the week. It seems like to some people, to be a top class midfielder, all you need to do is tackle.
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It seems to me you think its 1985.

Football in 2018 is vastly different, show me a complete midfielder in 2018.
 
EFC78 said:
I think you're significantly over exaggerating his weaknesses. His passing is no where near as poor as some make out for a start, it has just been particularly poor in the last 2 games. He has a pass completion % of 85% - surely if he was so bad at passing, it'd be much lower? James Milner for example has the same pass completion % of 85%, the best in the league in Gana's position are at 88% - Kante and Fernandinho. That's not to say that his passing isn't a weakness, but he's not as awful as is being made out.

As for the rest of his game, you are doing him a disservice by saying he makes rash and clumsy challenges. It's part of his game to attempt tackles to win the ball back and he makes so many during the game which have a positive impact. He protects the back 4 very well and when we play with a high intensity (which to my knowledge is what the fans want), we play our best football and a huge part of that intensity comes from Gana.

A lot of judgements have been made about last night but we struggled against a team that came for a draw and made life difficult. Gana was excellent in about 4 of the 5 games before the derby.
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As you’re obviously into stats to prove your point. Maybe you could find his Key pass stats or how many chances he creates, or his pass stats over a certain distance, or his forward passes.

Because last night most of his successful ones were short passes square or back. Most of his forward ones, especially with a bit of distance on them.

You can go on about stats all you like, but anyone saying Gana is a good passer is blinkered.
 

Stephenlloyd said:
As you’re obviously into stats to prove your point. Maybe you could find his Key pass stats or how many chances he creates, or his pass stats over a certain distance, or his forward passes.

Because last night most of his successful ones were short passes square or back. Most of his forward ones, especially with a bit of distance on them.

You can go on about stats all you like, but anyone saying Gana is a good passer is blinkered.
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Why would he be assessed on chances created when he's a defensive midfielder though? That isn't what he's in the team for, because we have Sigurdsson, Gomes and Bernard for that.

As for saying he is a good passer, i've never claimed that - I said it is a weakness of his, just it isn't as awful as some make out.

He's played less games than Kante, and has more passes forward though since that's one of the things you mention. 238 for Gana to 188 for Kante. I'm not a big fan of stats in general, just thought it would provide a bit of context in this particular aspect of the debate. When I watch him I see a limited player on the ball, who can be careless in possession (was especially careless the last 2 games), but someone who does the defensive side of the game very well and also is key to injecting an intensity in our play by constantly hounding the opposition players and winning the ball back. His ability to know where the ball is going to be to intercept or step up to make a tackle is one of his best attributes too in my opinion.
 

He is what he is, a defensive specialist and a damn good one in my opinion, he must be a nightmare to play against when hes at it, he doesn't let the opposition breathe, it is enjoyable to watch if, like me you also take pleasure in those types of qualities as well as the flair bits. Having a lad like Gana really allows the more gifted players with the ball more freedom to find space and make runs; which if weren't so well covered they wouldn't make.

The fact he and Gomes compliment each other so well is good for us as well because Gomes has that extra bit of quality that wouldn't be out of place in any team in this division. I can't believe he was so bad at Barca because so far for me he is right up there, what a joy to watch and a lot of it stems from Gana(although Gomes puts a good shift in too, an all rounder) but equally it shows how bad Schneiderlin has been to be honest. I've gone off on a tangent there lost my train of thought ha.
 
Stephenlloyd said:
As you’re obviously into stats to prove your point. Maybe you could find his Key pass stats or how many chances he creates, or his pass stats over a certain distance, or his forward passes.

Because last night most of his successful ones were short passes square or back. Most of his forward ones, especially with a bit of distance on them.

You can go on about stats all you like, but anyone saying Gana is a good passer is blinkered.
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You have to make up your mind, do you want him to make key passes, or so you want him to keep the ball? You keep saying he gives the ball away cheaply. I’ve never heard anyone make that claim and there is absolutely no empirical evidence that is the case.

He’s an amazing defensive midfielder. He’s the best tackler and maybe the best ball winner in the PL. He doesn’t make key passes because he’s a defensive midfielder.
 
BernieH said:
He is what he is, a defensive specialist and a damn good one in my opinion, he must be a nightmare to play against when hes at it, he doesn't let the opposition breathe, it is enjoyable to watch if, like me you also take pleasure in those types of qualities as well as the flair bits. Having a lad like Gana really allows the more gifted players with the ball more freedom to find space and make runs; which if weren't so well covered they wouldn't make.

The fact he and Gomes compliment each other so well is good for us as well because Gomes has that extra bit of quality that wouldn't be out of place in any team in this division. I can't believe he was so bad at Barca because so far for me he is right up there, what a joy to watch and a lot of it stems from Gana(although Gomes puts a good shift in too, an all rounder) but equally it shows how bad Schneiderlin has been to be honest. I've gone off on a tangent there lost my train of thought ha.
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He just wasn’t a bit at Barca. He holds the ball and runs with it. Barca doesn’t want that. They want the ball moved. Quick passing.
 

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