Is Football Racist ?

[nigelcoyb]

i missed the sarcasm in your post the 1st time. you obviously think you are an authority on history, you come across like a 1970s bully of a teacher. unclench your buttocks nige - your way too uptight.

Stop being a tool, you waded into a subject you're clearly ignorant of quoting some spoofery about Jews not fighting in WW2, not something I've ever heard probably because it's ridiculous.

You got a bit sarky theorising about a film and asked some questions and got answered - stop whinging.

 

[davek]

Tbf we weren't particulally pleasent to John Barnes. But neither were they when he was at Watford.

A vital truth they purposely forget.

Racist abuse thrown at Barnes (who, as you say, was also abused by Liverpool supporters) is more than offset by Liverpool fans historic discrimination against black people and their club's dismal record in avoiding the signing of Irish Catholic players.

 

[steken1]

Anybody who's been on an away day with us, and most likely every club, will know the answer to this question.

Pointless and childish to suggest anything else.

 

[caught]

Does there have to be documentation that he was mixed race for it to be so? His contemporaries saw it, he received abuse throughout his life for it (even his Times obituary in 1980 described his looks as 'Uncle Tom') and he looks in every photo clearly to be of mixed race. Somewhere in his family background there's a black origin.

When someone (for instance, you) refers to Dean as being "black" it implies that there's some further knowledge of his racial history. Since this isn't detailed in either of the significant biographies, I wondered where your confidence came from. I'm still not sure where it came from, but now I know it wasn't from actual knowledge of the issue, which is what I suspected.

Not to dip too far into semantic theory, but while it holds that Dean's race might have been questioned/taunted circa eighty years ago, it becomes a vacuous truth to classify those opinions as correct today (i.e. Dean was racially abused in the 1920s-1930s = Dean was “blackâ€￾). It’s a simple logical misstep. The most you can say is that Dean was perceived as being mixed race eighty years ago (to the best of my knowledge, the 'Uncle Tom' remark in the Times obit was in reference to the historical prejudices of the time) and that Everton Football Club did not let that perception influence their decision to employ him. Which, I agree, is a good thing, although it's somewhat deflating to celebrate anyone simply not being racist.

I wasn’t initially attempting to undermine your point. It just read like you knew something concrete and I wondered how.

 

[steken1]

Stop being a tool, you waded into a subject you're clearly ignorant of quoting some spoofery about Jews not fighting in WW2, not something I've ever heard probably because it's ridiculous.

You got a bit sarky theorising about a film and asked some questions and got answered - stop whinging.

Think you've completely misunderstood his comments Nige. Go back and read it again.

 

[Steveo]

I agree, without mentioning names some appear to be protesting too much, the BNP presence is more prevalent in football than other sports for some reason so to dismiss outright the claim doesn't quite add up.

These people don't usually sit on the boards though.

The point about the difference between black players and black managers is unfair tbh. For a start there's the time lag, today's managers were playing 10-20 years ago when there weren't so many black players.

Also, if you wanted to be cute you could point out that football is the only place on England that black people are over represented in management positions.

3 out of 92 = 3.2% compared to 1.5% of the population.

 

[Elong]

These people don't usually sit on the boards though.

The point about the difference between black players and black managers is unfair tbh. For a start there's the time lag, today's managers were playing 10-20 years ago when there weren't so many black players.

Also, if you wanted to be cute you could point out that football is the only place on England that black people are over represented in management positions.

3 out of 92 = 3.2% compared to 1.5% of the population.

This is a pretty damning stat for John Barnes in my opinion.

What's the percentage of Asian managers?

 

[Piijt]

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[Steveo]

This is a pretty damning stat for John Barnes in my opinion.

What's the percentage of Asian managers?

The stats which damn John Barnes the most are the points tallies of the teams he was in charge of.

 

[nigelcoyb]

Think you've completely misunderstood his comments Nige. Go back and read it again.

Just did Ste.

You must see something I don't.

IMO his "little known history" comment needed answering as "ignorance is no defence" hence my reference to something near to home - the UK nations - celts vs english. Racism represents power imbalance, a persecution by one group upon another the effects can last for centuries. I pointed that out and he got arsey, really can't see what you obviously can.

Enlighten me.

 

[davek]

When someone (for instance, you) refers to Dean as being "black" it implies that there's some further knowledge of his racial history. Since this isn't detailed in either of the significant biographies, I wondered where your confidence came from. I'm still not sure where it came from, but now I know it wasn't from actual knowledge of the issue, which is what I suspected.

Not to dip too far into semantic theory, but while it holds that Dean's race might have been questioned/taunted circa eighty years ago, it becomes a vacuous truth to classify those opinions as correct today (i.e. Dean was racially abused in the 1920s-1930s = Dean was “blackâ€￾). It’s a simple logical misstep. The most you can say is that Dean was perceived as being mixed race eighty years ago (to the best of my knowledge, the 'Uncle Tom' remark in the Times obit was in reference to the historical prejudices of the time) and that Everton Football Club did not let that perception influence their decision to employ him. Which, I agree, is a good thing, although it's somewhat deflating to celebrate anyone simply not being racist.

I wasn’t initially attempting to undermine your point. It just read like you knew something concrete and I wondered how.

If there's nothing in his biographies about it, it doesn't mean it wasn't so. It just means that his own self-perception is not being of mixed-race - and that would be understandable given the crushing discrimination of being mixed-race. The anecdotal evidence of commentary throughout his life - by those abusing him and those defending him - is that he was mixed race. As for concrete evidence, it's there in your face in every photo of Dean that was ever taken; if you can look at any of those photos and say he didn't have that appearance then I'm wondering what photos you're looking at. If someone now looking like Dean were to walk past you in the street you wouldn't hesitate to note they're appearance as non-white; if they told you they weren't it'd just be their call on it.

I've noticed a lot of blues over the years struggle to accept that our greatest ever player was of mixed race. I dont know why that should be.

 

[McBain]

I thought Dixie just 'looked' dark skinned. Enlighten the unenlightened peeps.

 

[steken1]

Just did Ste.

You must see something I don't.

IMO his "little known history" comment needed answering as "ignorance is no defence" hence my reference to something near to home - the UK nations - celts vs english. Racism represents power imbalance, a persecution by one group upon another the effects can last for centuries. I pointed that out and he got arsey, really can't see what you obviously can.

Enlighten me.

My interpretation of his post was that a majority of people where under the impression that the Jewish were taken meekly, when in fact there are many instances where this is completely wrong and the film highlighting the Bielski brothers heroism had only recently brought this to public conciousness.

Also there are many instances where oppressed civilisations or races have been painted in an untrue light. It looked to me that he was making the same 'ignorance is no excuse' argument you were.

 

[caught]

If there's nothing in his biographies about it, it doesn't mean it wasn't so. It just means that his own self-perception is not being of mixed-race - and that would be understandable given the crushing discrimination of being mixed-race. The anecdotal evidence of commentary throughout his life - by those abusing him and those defending him - is that he was mixed race. As for concrete evidence, it's there in your face in every photo of Dean that was ever taken; if you can look at any of those photos and say he didn't have that appearance then I'm wondering what photos you're looking at. If someone now looking like Dean were to walk past you in the street you wouldn't hesitate to note they're appearance as non-white; if they told you they weren't it'd just be their call on it.

I've noticed a lot of blues over the years struggle to accept that our greatest ever player was of mixed race. I dont know why that should be.

I didn't say it wasn't so, I asked where you got your information from. Turns out it's from looking at photographs. Also, you've stopped using the term "black" now that you've been called out - don't think you're being smooth with that little swerve. And don't tell me what I would or wouldn't "hesitate".

Your language is both ugly and clunky, by the way. "Struggle to accept"? Please. You made a stupid comment and got called on it, now you're attempting an unsubtle shift to deflect the fact. "I don't know why"? Coward.

It's fair to say that, historically, Dean might have had non-caucasian ancestors. It's racially, historically and just generally ignorant to refer to him as "black". Pointing that out doesn't mean anyone has a problem with Dean's race, just a problem with your willful ignorance.

 

[davek]

I didn't say it wasn't so, I asked where you got your information from. Turns out it's from looking at photographs. Also, you've stopped using the term "black" now that you've been called out - don't think you're being smooth with that little swerve. And don't tell me what I would or wouldn't "hesitate".

Your language is both ugly and clunky, by the way. "Struggle to accept"? Please. You made a stupid comment and got called on it, now you're attempting an unsubtle shift to deflect the fact. "I don't know why"? Coward.

It's fair to say that, historically, Dean might have had non-caucasian ancestors. It's racially, historically and just generally ignorant to refer to him as "black". Pointing that out doesn't mean anyone has a problem with Dean's race, just a problem with your willful ignorance.

You yourself used the terms black or mixed race (as I did) in this thread interchangeably. Go back and read your own words before you comment on my 'clunkiness'. ****ing unbelievable inconsistency.

As for evidence (again): I'm sorry, I'm not aware that photographs are not part of evidence gathering. Maybe the world's police forces should be informed of this revelation immediately? Absurd.

Try and respond to all that with a bit of logic - if you can find it in you, that is.