January transfer window 2024

[Zatara]

I get your point, and as I said I am all for signing / progressing youth players.

But there is a world of difference between a starting 20 year old and relying on a back up 20 year old.

My question was - do many clubs do that? I wasn't aware of any but others have pointed out 2 moderately successful clubs that use that model, which is great. But if all we have is two clubs that are basically businesses rather than football clubs, is it really the best model?

Wouldn't it make more sense to do what 99% of clubs do and have one experienced back up and one younger player rather than 2 youth players? Especially if it is Takowski that gets injured/suspended rather than Branthwaite?

So the choices are:

1: Sign an experienced player ss backup who isnt good enough to start.

2: Sign an u21 who over the course of the season will likely/hopefully improve to a starting level.

 

[MisterJ]

Well my other team has a 20 and 18 year old as backup CB’s and they’re going for the league title and play CL knockout stages nearly every year.

Other team?

 

[Simon Buttle]

I get your point, and as I said I am all for signing / progressing youth players.

But there is a world of difference between a starting 20 year old and relying on a back up 20 year old.

My question was - do many clubs do that? I wasn't aware of any but others have pointed out 2 moderately successful clubs that use that model, which is great. But if all we have is two clubs that are basically businesses rather than football clubs, is it really the best model?

Wouldn't it make more sense to do what 99% of clubs do and have one experienced back up and one younger player rather than 2 youth players? Especially if it is Takowski that gets injured/suspended rather than Branthwaite?

Every club is a business now, part of our problem over recent years has been that we have been clinging on to still being the 'traditional football club' You just can't operate like that anymore, you get left behind.

 

[WA Toffee]

So the choices are:

1: Sign an experienced player ss backup who isnt good enough to start.

2: Sign an u21 who over the course of the season will likely/hopefully improve to a starting level.

3. Sign an England international on loan and have a Colombian international as back up

If you really think the only options are under 21s that will improve, or over 21s that aren't good enough, then it's a pretty pointless discussion

 

[WA Toffee]

Every club is a business now, part of our problem over recent years has been that we have been clinging on to still being the 'traditional football club' You just can't operate like that anymore, you get left behind.

Of course we have to run like a business. I was asking why 99% of clubs don't use the model of 2 established cb's with the only backups being youth players, because to me that sounds like a business plan that is likely to cause more issues than it solves.

 

[Blast_of_Cannock]

The other lad is Roony Bardghi (sp?) I think. Supposed to be a massive talent. I'd wager out of our league already.

Sounds like something the waiters would say when Wayne's just ordered his curry.

 

[Zatara]

3. Sign an England international on loan and have a Colombian international as back up

If you really think the only options are under 21s that will improve, or over 21s that aren't good enough, then it's a pretty pointless discussion

Which England international would that be + what Colombian? Are these current internationals or cast offs like Keane...

How much would their wages be?

Of course we have to run like a business. I was asking why 99% of clubs don't use the model of 2 established cb's with the only backups being youth players, because to me that sounds like a business plan that is likely to cause more issues than it solves.

No one mentioned "youth players" as backups.

'U21 and u19' are ages and could easily merit first team inclusion.

 

[WA Toffee]

Which England international would that be + what Colombian? Are these current internationals or cast offs like Keane...

How much would their wages be?



No one mentioned "youth players" as backups.

'U21 and u19' are ages and could easily merit first team inclusion.

Connor Coady would be the England international, since he went to the World cup last season. Yerry Mina would be the Colombian. But you knew that already

But by focussing one small detail I suppose it makes it easier for you miss the point completely - there are more than the 2 options you presented as the only choices.

And by trying to steer the conversation down this specific rabbit hole it means you can avoid the question I asked in the first place - how many clubs have successfully had 2 first choice centre backs, with a 20 year old and an 18 year old as their only back ups?

 

[Bkk Andy]

Connor Coady would be the England international, since he went to the World cup last season. Yerry Mina would be the Colombian. But you knew that already

But by focussing one small detail I suppose it makes it easier for you miss the point completely - there are more than the 2 options you presented as the only choices.

And by trying to steer the conversation down this specific rabbit hole it means you can avoid the question I asked in the first place - how many clubs have successfully had 2 first choice centre backs, with a 20 year old and an 18 year old as their only back ups?

He isn't missing the point. He's deflecting so he can continue talking about his obsession with youth. It's disturbing to be honest.

 

[Zatara]

Connor Coady would be the England international, since he went to the World cup last season. Yerry Mina would be the Colombian. But you knew that already

But by focussing one small detail I suppose it makes it easier for you miss the point completely - there are more than the 2 options you presented as the only choices.

And by trying to steer the conversation down this specific rabbit hole it means you can avoid the question I asked in the first place - how many clubs have successfully had 2 first choice centre backs, with a 20 year old and an 18 year old as their only back ups?

Well, no i didnt have a clue who you were talking about.

So what you're saying is that rather than signing an u21 3rd choice and an u19 4th choice (not 18 or 20 year old youth players)...

...you'd sign a £28mil Yerry Mina and bring in Conor Coady on loan.

I'm not sure how that would work as both players werent offered extensions due to their enormous wages.

An u21 and an u19 would be on 25-30% of their wages and I'm not advocating spending £28mil on one.

Not sure why you're going on about "youth players" or "18 and 20" year olds and now arguing for massive expenditure on backups without mid-long term benefit.

Doesnt make sense to me i'm afraid.

 

[Zatara]

He isn't missing the point. He's deflecting so he can continue talking about his obsession with youth. It's disturbing to be honest.

I wasnt the one asking questions.

Perhaps you can provide an alternative to paying massive wages on backup players that werent offered deals...or signing high potential players.

Seeing as the club doesnt have the money to waste im eager to read what your idea is.

No doubt it will be "disturbing" for you to think so you either wont bother or just stick to making rude comments.

You come across as the person that cant afford expensive restaurants and wont try new affordable things so just eats mcdonalds.

 

[Bkk Andy]

I wasnt the one asking questions.

Perhaps you can provide an alternative to paying massive wages on backup players that werent offered deals...or signing high potential players.

Seeing as the club doesnt have the money to waste im eager to read what your idea is.

No doubt it will be "disturbing" for you to think so you either wont bother or just stick to making rude comments.

You come across as the person that cant afford expensive restaurants and wont try new affordable things so just eats mcdonalds.

You don't need to worry about what I can afford, I'm doing just fine. Stick to worrying about what Everton can afford. But this has nothing to do with what the club can afford either. When we were spending money you still wanted a team full of young boys. Your default setting is teenagers and it's common knowledge on here. Experience goes a long way in football, especially at centre half, but you'd happily gamble with one 30+ player and 3 youngsters who may or not develop into premier league level players. There are plenty of alternatives that don't have to put the club at risk. WA toffee pointed out that we got an England international on loan only last year. Deals like that can be done and wages can be negotiated too. Besides, as you keep pointing out, moving on Holgate, Godfrey or Keane would allow those loanee wages to be covered.

 

[WA Toffee]

Well, no i didnt have a clue who you were talking about.

So what you're saying is that rather than signing an u21 3rd choice and an u19 4th choice (not 18 or 20 year old youth players)...

...you'd sign a £28mil Yerry Mina and bring in Conor Coady on loan.

I'm not sure how that would work as both players werent offered extensions due to their enormous wages.

An u21 and an u19 would be on 25-30% of their wages and I'm not advocating spending £28mil on one.

Not sure why you're going on about "youth players" or "18 and 20" year olds and now arguing for massive expenditure on backups without mid-long term benefit.

Doesnt make sense to me i'm afraid.

No mate, that is not what I am saying.

You said there was 2 options

So the choices are:

1: Sign an experienced player ss backup who isnt good enough to start.

2: Sign an u21 who over the course of the season will likely/hopefully improve to a starting level.

I was pointing out that there are more than 2 options. And gave you one example of a 3rd option, which just happened to be Everton last season.

Please mate, don't spend your time looking for tiny holes in what is an illustrative example or trying to force a discussion into binary options.

So, those successful clubs with an u21 and u19 as their only defensive cover, got any examples yet?

 

[WA Toffee]

You don't need to worry about what I can afford, I'm doing just fine. Stick to worrying about what Everton can afford. But this has nothing to do with what the club can afford either. When we were spending money you still wanted a team full of young boys. Your default setting is teenagers and it's common knowledge on here. Experience goes a long way in football, especially at centre half, but you'd happily gamble with one 30+ player and 3 youngsters who may or not develop into premier league level players. There are plenty of alternatives that don't have to put the club at risk. WA toffee pointed out that we got an England international on loan only last year. Deals like that can be done and wages can be negotiated too. Besides, as you keep pointing out, moving on Holgate, Godfrey or Keane would allow those loanee wages to be covered.

Up front, I think we have it right. An experienced first choice, an experienced but youngish back up that challenges for the first team spot and a 19 year old with first team experience involved in every squad. Perfect.

Centre back is different, you need at least one experienced back up, as throwing two 19/20/21 year olds into first team action is just asking for trouble. Which is why no club does it.

 

[Zatara]

You don't need to worry about what I can afford, I'm doing just fine. Stick to worrying about what Everton can afford. But this has nothing to do with what the club can afford either. When we were spending money you still wanted a team full of young boys. Your default setting is teenagers and it's common knowledge on here. Experience goes a long way in football, especially at centre half, but you'd happily gamble with one 30+ player and 3 youngsters who may or not develop into premier league level players. There are plenty of alternatives that don't have to put the club at risk. WA toffee pointed out that we got an England international on loan only last year. Deals like that can be done and wages can be negotiated too. Besides, as you keep pointing out, moving on Holgate, Godfrey or Keane would allow those loanee wages to be covered.

Here's the problem. If you bring in another Coady its a short term stop gap.

Theres no growth trajectory.

Also, you may want to check your facts, I actually was open to Young signing. Just as I am with Coleman as a backup -- due to funds and the idea being for them to pass experience and knowledge to the younger players' benefit.

Not to mention wanting Tarkowski to join.

The problem is the barriers to growth, as the teams that succeed either have alot of money OR the best scouting system.

We have neither. Coady was not kept on for a reason.

The dining point was relevant because if you're wealthy you can go with expensive restaurants every time.

If you arent, you either choose something 'different' or stick to the standard budget meal.

For a club near the bottom, its time for something different.

No mate, that is not what I am saying.

You said there was 2 options

I was pointing out that there are more than 2 options. And gave you one example of a 3rd option, which just happened to be Everton last season.

Please mate, don't spend your time looking for tiny holes in what is an illustrative example or trying to force a discussion into binary options.

So, those successful clubs with an u21 and u19 as their only defensive cover, got any examples yet?

I'm actually not really thinking too much about it which is why the Mina/Coady examples didnt register -- neither would make logical sense for the club as ive pointed out (high fee and wages).

Theres been two clubs Salzburg and Leipzig mentioned already. The ressons put forward as to why this wouldnt work in the premier league are because of the level of competition and the money at stake.

Didnt work out badly for Arsenal or Man United once they pinpointed players to keep as the foundations.

If you expand past the centre backs, these are the contracted players as we enter 2024.

2026 (3)
Mykolenko
Tarkowski
Garner

2027 (7)
Branthwaite
Onana
Pickford
McNeil
Patterson
Beto
Chermiti

When we look at this, it shows us that short term thinking isnt going to do much good when we will only have 43% of a 23man squad that will be contracted 2years+.

There has to be a long term solution put in motion...