2023/24 Kevin Thelwell

[Saint Domingo]

But a stable club and a stable 1st team trickle down to the academy.

@Neiler even said we've churned out players but your argument is we haven't developed an idea of how the academy play.

Well...if they play and develop talent a certain way that doesn't fit with the first team...those players aren't getting in.

And the club is a mess from top to bottom to even develop that side of it.

Far too much store is put into academy ‘philosophies’ and ways of playing. Barcelona had the best academy in the world, La masia, kids schooled in one way of playing etc. but after a golden generation of Xavi Iniesta Busquets Pique etc. the players that came through afterwards weren’t as good. It’s taken an almost generation before Pedri and Gavi have come through. Same thing happened at United, a whole generation of class of 92 followed by nothing for ages until Rashford.

Our academy was in disarray but it didn’t stop Rooney coming through. Of course having a better academy creates pathways but no one has mastered having a conveyor belt of world class first team talent. We haven’t done any worse than other non sky six PL teams, and we’ve done a lot better than most.

 

[Rob17896]

I’m not the one absolutely slaughtering him though using numbers we have no idea are even accurate. Do you see the difference?

His job must be like a personal shopper whose client is on the dole.

 

[nsno-chris]

But a stable club and a stable 1st team trickle down to the academy.

@Neiler even said we've churned out players but your argument is we haven't developed an idea of how the academy play.

Well...if they play and develop talent a certain way that doesn't fit with the first team...those players aren't getting in.

And the club is a mess from top to bottom to even develop that side of it.

Again you’ve literally missed what I said.

I said it has nothing to do with churning out players; I can’t make this clear enough.

The academy has an awful culture, there’s no standards, ownership or responsibility. That does not take money, it takes a plan.

Lads don’t chose to go to city, RS or Utd because they get better deals; they go there because there’s a better plan in place for them

 

[Blue peter]

His job does not solely revolve around buying players

We have a youth setup, from literal children to players who should be on the verge of the first team, that is utter shambles and wildly known to be poorly run.

There is no plan or career progression in place for younger players. It doesn’t take money to sort that out

How would you know in respect of the younger groups? A strategy takes time, he’s been with us for 2 years

 

[matty1878]

he will sign boss players now

 

[twoblue]

Far too much store is put into academy ‘philosophies’ and ways of playing. Barcelona had the best academy in the world, La masia, kids schooled in one way of playing etc. but after a golden generation of Xavi Iniesta Busquets Pique etc. the players that came through afterwards weren’t as good. It’s taken an almost generation before Pedri and Gavi have come through. Same thing happened at United, a whole generation of class of 92 followed by nothing for ages until Rashford.

Our academy was in disarray but it didn’t stop Rooney coming through. Of course having a better academy creates pathways but no one has mastered having a conveyor belt of world class first team talent. We haven’t done any worse than other non sky six PL teams, and we’ve done a lot better than most.

No matter what coaches do, I have seen no better method for success than chosing the best talent. The more successful you are on the pitch and more players that come through and play professionally, the more talent you attract.
We are doing the opposit and therefore spiraling

 

[Saint Domingo]

No matter what coaches do, I have seen no better method for success than chosing the best talent. The more successful you are on the pitch and more players that come through and play professionally, the more talent you attract.
We are doing the opposit and therefore spiraling

Depends how you look at it.

Cole Palmer is playing at Chelsea now because City didn’t create a pathway for him. How long does Oscar Bobb stay, or Mcatee etc. They’ve got the best academy in the PL but one player has made it into their first team as a regular. How many good players won’t even get any minutes because they can buy whoever they want? Now if a team is running academies purely for profit generation that’s one thing but if it’s about creating players for the first team then buying all the best players in the world and being super successful isn’t the answer for attracting young academy talent. Kids won’t be desperate to join City’s academy if you’ve got to be as good as Phil Foden to get a few games.

Meanwhile precisely because we’ve been so poor pathways have been available for basically anyone who is even competent from the academy and young players we signed. Stones, Gordon, Branthwaite, Calvert Lewin all had time, opportunity, and patience for mistakes that most of the sky six teams just wouldn’t indulge. Players like Davies Kenny Holgate had PL careers they probably wouldn’t have had if we didn’t keep having to revert back to them because our first team options were so poor.

So if you’re a young kid just desperate to make it as a PL footballer, which academy of those two are you going to join to give you a better opportunity?

 

[nsno-chris]

How would you know in respect of the younger groups? A strategy takes time, he’s been with us for 2 years

A strategy is different to a culture; a culture is changed by strong leadership

But it’s almost the Everton way nowadays, making excuses for poor performance

 

[Billy Dean]

Depends how you look at it.

Cole Palmer is playing at Chelsea now because City didn’t create a pathway for him. How long does Oscar Bobb stay, or Mcatee etc. They’ve got the best academy in the PL but one player has made it into their first team as a regular. How many good players won’t even get any minutes because they can buy whoever they want? Now if a team is running academies purely for profit generation that’s one thing but if it’s about creating players for the first team then buying all the best players in the world and being super successful isn’t the answer for attracting young academy talent. Kids won’t be desperate to join City’s academy if you’ve got to be as good as Phil Foden to get a few games.

Meanwhile precisely because we’ve been so poor pathways have been available for basically anyone who is even competent from the academy and young players we signed. Stones, Gordon, Branthwaite, Calvert Lewin all had time, opportunity, and patience for mistakes that most of the sky six teams just wouldn’t indulge. Players like Davies Kenny Holgate had PL careers they probably wouldn’t have had if we didn’t keep having to revert back to them because our first team options were so poor.

So if you’re a young kid just desperate to make it as a PL footballer, which academy of those two are you going to join to give you a better opportunity?

You probably look at which one has the best record of producing PL level players

 

[twoblue]

Depends how you look at it.

Cole Palmer is playing at Chelsea now because City didn’t create a pathway for him. How long does Oscar Bobb stay, or Mcatee etc. They’ve got the best academy in the PL but one player has made it into their first team as a regular. How many good players won’t even get any minutes because they can buy whoever they want? Now if a team is running academies purely for profit generation that’s one thing but if it’s about creating players for the first team then buying all the best players in the world and being super successful isn’t the answer for attracting young academy talent. Kids won’t be desperate to join City’s academy if you’ve got to be as good as Phil Foden to get a few games.

Meanwhile precisely because we’ve been so poor pathways have been available for basically anyone who is even competent from the academy and young players we signed. Stones, Gordon, Branthwaite, Calvert Lewin all had time, opportunity, and patience for mistakes that most of the sky six teams just wouldn’t indulge. Players like Davies Kenny Holgate had PL careers they probably wouldn’t have had if we didn’t keep having to revert back to them because our first team options were so poor.

So if you’re a young kid just desperate to make it as a PL footballer, which academy of those two are you going to join to give you a better opportunity?

If you get 40m for one of you prospects that can’t make the first team, that not a bad problem to have

 

[Blue peter]

A strategy is different to a culture; a culture is changed by strong leadership

But it’s almost the Everton way nowadays, making excuses for poor performance

Not really…. you just have to have a reasonable time frame for success to be achieved whether that’s success in production line or success in culture / standards. I think 2 years is too soon, but I do think Thelwell needs to have demonstrated progress towards success internally, which eventually from the outside looking in, we shall e able to see. I’d be surprised if he doesn’t have milestone targets and indicators to check progress.

How long do you think it takes for us to see success of the type of success you are speaking about?

 

[Zatara]

Posted this in the transfer thread:

Here's what I think...

Dobbin OUT = Iroegbunam IN
Harrison LOAN
DCL OUT = Minteh IN
Godfrey OUT = Kabore IN
Beto OUT = Bove IN
Onana OUT = Ndiaye IN
Maupay OUT
Holgate OUT
New Centre forward IN
New Centre back IN


Pickford / Virginia
Mykolenko / Young
Branthwaite / Keane
Tarkowski / New*
Kabore / Coleman
NcNeil / Harrison
Gana / Iroegbunam
Garner / Bove
Minteh / Mills
Doucoure / Ndiaye
New* / Chermiti


I think this may be the defining summer of Thelwells career.

If he can pull off those deals while also bringing in a better CF than DCL & a young centre back to develop then it's the ultimate game changer while staying within the rules.

The Friedkin Group to come in mid August and lend some weight to bring in one fantastic young player and we'll be looking at the top half.

 

[Simon Buttle]

Posted this in the transfer thread:

Here's what I think...

Dobbin OUT = Iroegbunam IN
Harrison LOAN
DCL OUT = Minteh IN
Godfrey OUT = Kabore IN
Beto OUT = Bove IN
Onana OUT = Ndiaye IN
Maupay OUT
Holgate OUT
New Centre forward IN
New Centre back IN


Pickford / Virginia
Mykolenko / Young
Branthwaite / Keane
Tarkowski / New*
Kabore / Coleman
NcNeil / Harrison
Gana / Iroegbunam
Garner / Bove
Minteh / Mills
Doucoure / Ndiaye
New* / Chermiti


I think this may be the defining summer of Thelwells career.

If he can pull off those deals while also bringing in a better CF than DCL & a young centre back to develop then it's the ultimate game changer while staying within the rules.

The Friedkin Group to come in mid August and lend some weight to bring in one fantastic young player and we'll be looking at the top half.

Bobble reckons there is nothing in the Ndiaye thing sadly

 

[Zatara]

Bobble reckons there is nothing in the Ndiaye thing sadly

I wonder more about Minteh, Kabore & Bove. Also my personal favourite Camara at Metz.

If we could bring in Camara, Kabore & Minteh then Thelwell will have done an outstanding job.

Branthwaite, Minteh & Camara would become our Mainoo, Garnacho & Hojlund.

All in the team for the new stadium in a year.

 

[blueconverse]

Do not let him choose a striker to replace DCL! Maupay, Beto and chasing Che Adams for months is one horrible track record