2017/18 Kieran Dowell

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ArtetaMagic said:
He'll be playing regular football (hopefully ) and against a better standard than most of the teams we'll play in europa league. It's a good move even though I'd love to see him play for us
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I really don't know what to make of this one. It's so hard to decide what is better for the development of young players as everyone is different. The wrong loan moves have proved disastrous for the likes of Galloway and Garbutt. But likewise, you only need to look at quality Chelsea players like Loftus Cheek, Chalobah and Solanke to show that staying with the parent club doesn't always work out either.

The problem I have with loans today is we don't have the youth loan scheme anymore. So if it isn't working out for Dowell at Forest there isn't a great deal that we can do about it until the loan finishes. In his favour, I do like Warburton as a manager and he does have history of giving youth a chance, and for playing football that could accommodate a player such as Dowell, so fingers crossed this loan works out well for him.

Personally I'd have liked us to have kept him for the first half of the season. There are a potential 10 games to play in EL during that time and I think European football would suit his game. With the size of our squad he should certainly get regular playing time with superior players than he'll be with at Forest, whilst training with the first team on a daily basis. A decision could then have been made about a half season loan in January.

But what do I know?
 
davek said:
10 games here is worth 100 in the Chumpionship (not a spelling error).
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Assuming this is right (and that's a big assumption), that's how much those games are to the player's development only. We have to also think about the impact on the team/results/season of playing someone who is still learning their trade and inevitably making mistakes along the way.

He MAY learn quicker by being given a regular starting place in the first time, but given the opportunity it is better for the club that he does his learning at a lower level where
a) he isn't under as much pressure from the baying mob
b) his mistakes don't cost us points

Sure, his development may take longer but there is a very good reason most premier league clubs do this.
 
bluestevon said:
Not really the case though mate is it, Dowell is 19 - name one team above us that he would be playing for in any serious game, answer is none, as they all have good academy lads who are not getting a look in, and the ones that do - like it or not tend to have a very very good worth ethic attached to the ability.

IF he goes and has a great loan year with Forest then next summer it becomes a bit more of a valid argument, although the case could easily be made that he would be in a situation of becoming a fringe player due to players ahead of him - then the situation of would a loan to a team in the bottom half of the league like a Bournemouth etc be a next best way of developing him more.

the year after that he'd still just be 21, with possible a good championship and premier league season under his belt, and most people deem Koeman unlikely to be here for a 4th season anyway.

IF as you believe Koeman won't ever play the lad, then us loaning him out right now for the year is absolutely 100% the best way for the lad to have a chance to have a Career with us, because otherwise you believe he'd sit rotting in the under 23s for effectively 2 years which would wreck his long term development.
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I like the way you're being very sanguine about Dowell being loaned out when you also state that you'd be 'concerned' if Kenny was loaned out too.

Maybe when that happens you'll have a bit more empathy with others who see another talent being punted down the road because they dont fit the perspiration team selection strategy being adopted.
 
Nymzee said:
This thread frustrates me. It's quite clearly a good move for the lad and he himself is said to be delighted.

I reckon most people fuming are the ones that have only seen him play this pre-season or a YouTube goal here and there.

Even read on FB earlier "ffs why have we let him go we needed his pace". I didn't even bother replying.
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This mate, I honestly can't see the negative in it. He wants to play every week and develop, the championship is the best place for that.

I go round different threads and see lads saying we must finish top 6, we must win a cup, challenge for champions league, I then come in here to fume like Dowell is the answer to all our top 6 unlocking secrets. The lad has no premier league experience but you would think he's been ripping David Luiz a new one every week.
It's dead weird.
 
b-rad said:
Assuming this is right (and that's a big assumption), that's how much those games are to the player's development only. We have to also think about the impact on the team/results/season of playing someone who is still learning their trade and inevitably making mistakes along the way.

He MAY learn quicker by being given a regular starting place in the first time, but given the opportunity it is better for the club that he does his learning at a lower level where
a) he isn't under as much pressure from the baying mob
b) his mistakes don't cost us points

Sure, his development may take longer but there is a very good reason most premier league clubs do this.
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This assumes that all players fit into one regime of progression.


Some players may well benefit from a move to the Championship to learn about game discipline and organisation and acquiring a competitive edge. Others have games that cant be developed by any Championship club because they play a game that is primarily about executing the excellent vision they have by bringing quality players who make quality runs into the game. And no Championship team is likely to improve their technique beyond what it is now.

Dowell is in the latter category all day long. What he should be doing is learning off Rooney how to make what he does telling more often than he makes it now. How on earth can playing with muppets in the Championship and being trained by second rate coaches be a step up from learning at the shoulder of one of the best British players of the past 50 years?

It doesn't make sense. It's a deplorable decision.
 

On balance I think this is a good move but not sure. It's potentially game time at a good level with hopefully a club pushing for a top six finish. Dowell doesn't need to pull up roots in the Championship just get enough games and experience to show he has what it takes At 19 there's lots of development left in him and we can polish him further on his return.
My nagging doubts is that's what I thought and said about Connolly on his loan to Wigan. He played games, made a good impression , developed a bit more and one too that I believe we could polish into a decent defender, instead the talk is of using him as a makeweight in the Siggi deal. At U23s level the loan moves have generally been well thought out and worked e.g. Kenny, Connolly, Walsh. As they move to the fringe of the first team we almost forget that they still need developing further and just "send them out for experience" e.g Galloway , Browning.
 
davek said:
This assumes that all players fit into one regime of progression.


Some players may well benefit from a move to the Championship to learn about game discipline and organisation and acquiring a competitive edge. Others have games that cant be developed by any Championship club because they play a game that is primarily about executing the excellent vision they have by bringing quality players who make quality runs into the game. And no Championship team is likely to improve their technique beyond what it is now.

Dowell is in the latter category all day long. What he should be doing is learning off Rooney how to make what he does telling more often than he makes it now. How on earth can playing with muppets in the Championship and being trained by second rate coaches be a step up from learning at the shoulder of one of the best British players of the past 50 years?

It doesn't make sense. It's a deplorable decision.
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Joe Royle, David Unsworth and Ronald Koeman all agree this is what is best for the lad. As I said earlier Royle actually said this at an after dinner evening a few months back. It's an ideal move for him, hopefully he does well and comes back next Summer with 30+ first team games under his belt.

The step up to first team football is the hardest of any, as suddenly everything is about the result, whereas prior to the first team it's more about player development. Dowell is at the age when he needs regular football so he can learn from his own mistakes and experiences. He's not ready to do this under the glare of Everton's first team just yet, so a loan move to a footballing side is the next best option. He'll learn far more actually playing and hjaving responsibilities than he will training and not playing proper competitive games.
 
Nymzee said:
Hi :bye:

CLUBS WHO HAVE HANDED TEENAGERS THE MOST MINUTES THIS SEASON
Team name Minutes given to teenagers
Everton 2,140
Manchester United 1,924
Manchester City 464
West Brom 386
Hull City 313
Liverpool 256
Stoke City 240
Southampton 155
Burnley 107
Bournemouth 81
Watford 38
Tottenham 18
Sunderland 9
Arsenal 1
Chelsea 0
West Ham 0
Leicester City 0
Crystal Palace 0
Middlesbrough 0
Swansea 0
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It will be interesting to see what happens this season
as i bet we get nowhere near that figure.
 

Little Ralphy said:
Joe Royle, David Unsworth and Ronald Koeman all agree this is what is best for the lad. As I said earlier Royle actually said this at an after dinner evening a few months back. It's an ideal move for him, hopefully he does well and comes back next Summer with 30+ first team games under his belt.

The step up to first team football is the hardest of any, as suddenly everything is about the result, whereas prior to the first team it's more about player development. Dowell is at the age when he needs regular football so he can learn from his own mistakes and experiences. He's not ready to do this under the glare of Everton's first team just yet, so a loan move to a footballing side is the next best option. He'll learn far more actually playing and hjaving responsibilities than he will training and not playing proper competitive games.
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Do they? Ok.

I know one does.
 
davek said:
I like the way you're being very sanguine about Dowell being loaned out when you also state that you'd be 'concerned' if Kenny was loaned out too.

Maybe when that happens you'll have a bit more empathy with others who see another talent being punted down the road because they dont fit the perspiration team selection strategy being adopted.
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..I suppose the difference with Kenny is that he's done the loan bit and played open age football in the lower leagues. Ultimately, though, the manager has a decision to make. Davies came straight into the Premiership from age restricted football, Koeman clearly feels he won't use Dowell at this stage. I'm entirely comfortable with that because it's his choice, we'll have a better idea at the end of the season if his judgement is right.
 
Eggs said:
..I suppose the difference with Kenny is that he's done the loan bit and played open age football in the lower leagues. Ultimately, though, the manager has a decision to make. Davies came straight into the Premiership from age restricted football, Koeman clearly feels he won't use Dowell at this stage. I'm entirely comfortable with that because it's his choice, we'll have a better idea at the end of the season if his judgement is right.
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Hmmm you are of course discounting the point that RK is obviously a complete kin idiot and hasn't a clue what he is doing.

it's an easy trap to fall into.
 

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