2017/18 Kieran Dowell

[Eggs]

you do know I am being sarcastic don't you?

please say you do, I can't keep up any more.

..I'm so naive Thomas.

 

[blueblue]

I dont care what he feels mate. I'm more interested in what other people on here think.

Whereas most of us don't care what others on here think... because a lot of it is nonsense.

We care about what the manager thinks.

 

[Lanolin]

I don't understand this. Are you saying he can't get stronger here? Do we not have a workout facility at Finch Farm? Will he not be training against even better "men" every day at Everton?

Surely you understand the difference between playing competitive games against senior players when points are on the line and playing against people in training when they're just going through the motions?

Going on loan is a longstanding rite of passage for young players, it's not like we've just come up with some wacky new scheme that'll never catch on.

 

[johnnydawg68]

I really don't know what to make of this one. It's so hard to decide what is better for the development of young players as everyone is different. The wrong loan moves have proved disastrous for the likes of Galloway and Garbutt. But likewise, you only need to look at quality Chelsea players like Loftus Cheek, Chalobah and Solanke to show that staying with the parent club doesn't always work out either.

The problem I have with loans today is we don't have the youth loan scheme anymore. So if it isn't working out for Dowell at Forest there isn't a great deal that we can do about it until the loan finishes. In his favour, I do like Warburton as a manager and he does have history of giving youth a chance, and for playing football that could accommodate a player such as Dowell, so fingers crossed this loan works out well for him.

Personally I'd have liked us to have kept him for the first half of the season. There are a potential 10 games to play in EL during that time and I think European football would suit his game. With the size of our squad he should certainly get regular playing time with superior players than he'll be with at Forest, whilst training with the first team on a daily basis. A decision could then have been made about a half season loan in January.

But what do I know?

A lot mate.

 

[atrottel]

Going on loan is a longstanding rite of passage for young players, it's not like we've just come up with some wacky new scheme that'll never catch on.

Although I agree with Dowell going on loan (especially with Warburton at the club), you have to say that our recent record of loans resulting in players breaking into the first team has not been particularly impressive:
Ledson - successful loan, sold to club
Lundstram - successful loan, sold to club
Kenny - successful loan, back at EFC, not in first team at the moment
Connolly - successful loan, back at EFC, possible makeweight in Sigurdsson deal?
McAleny - series of unsuccessful loans, released
Grant - loan periods mixed, back at club with little likelihood of first team
Garbutt - was first team, mixed to bad loan periods, back at club with little likelihood of first team
Galloway - was first team, horrible loan period, on loan at Sunderland

On the other hand, look at those youth players who are getting minutes:
Holgate - bought in
Calvert-Lewin - bought in
Lookman - bought in
Davies - never gone on loan

 

[Lanolin]

Although I agree with Dowell going on loan (especially with Warburton at the club), you have to say that our recent record of loans resulting in players breaking into the first team has not been particularly impressive:
Ledson - successful loan, sold to club
Lundstram - successful loan, sold to club
Kenny - successful loan, back at EFC, not in first team at the moment
Connolly - successful loan, back at EFC, possible makeweight in Sigurdsson deal?
McAleny - series of unsuccessful loans, released
Grant - loan periods mixed, back at club with little likelihood of first team
Garbutt - was first team, mixed to bad loan periods, back at club with little likelihood of first team
Galloway - was first team, horrible loan period, on loan at Sunderland

On the other hand, look at those youth players who are getting minutes:
Holgate - bought in
Calvert-Lewin - bought in
Lookman - bought in
Davies - never gone on loan

I've mentioned before that I think (hope) we're at a bit of a changeover point for this type of thing.

I used the example of Pennington initially so I'll stick with that to illustrate what I mean. I think a few years ago a player who was good enough to be a regular starter in the Championship was usually good enough to be a regular squad member for us. I'm talking about the sort of time that Moyes had squads with about 18 senior players, and we often signed players from the Championship anyway. At that point, I think someone like Pennington would have been in 30 matchday squads a season, and got 10-15 games, possibly progressing to more as he got older. Now the quality of the squad is higher, and players like him are less likely to make their career with us.

The same principle applies in instances like this. Dowell is probably more developed than the likes of Rodwell and Anichebe were when they got into the side, but the quality of player he's trying to oust has gone up. Whereas they only had to be able to compete with Castillo, Gosling, Beckford etc for a place in the squad (apologies if my years are slightly out there, I haven't checked when their breakthroughs were) Dowell is effectively competing with (hopefully) Sigurdsson, Mirallas, Sandro, Rooney, Klaassen, Lennon, Bolasie and currently Barkley, aswell as Lookman and DCL from his own age group. We're therefore looking for him to be a bit more developed before he gets a look in. If he comes back a better player he might get a chance next year, if he doesn't he'll probably follow the path of some of the others you mentioned there.

 

[atrottel]

The same principle applies in instances like this. Dowell is probably more developed than the likes of Rodwell and Anichebe were when they got into the side, but the quality of player he's trying to oust has gone up. Whereas they only had to be able to compete with Castillo, Gosling, Beckford etc for a place in the squad (apologies if my years are slightly out there, I haven't checked when their breakthroughs were) Dowell is effectively competing with (hopefully) Sigurdsson, Mirallas, Sandro, Rooney, Klaassen, Lennon, Bolasie and currently Barkley, aswell as Lookman and DCL from his own age group. We're therefore looking for him to be a bit more developed before he gets a look in. If he comes back a better player he might get a chance next year, if he doesn't he'll probably follow the path of some of the others you mentioned there.

Yes, that was why I was saying that I thought him going out on loan was a good idea because we are stuffed with midfielders and already have youngsters fighting for places in the team (although not direct competition, playing Davies, Lookman and/or DCL could mean that any manager is less likely to play even more youth in a side).

I thought they were interesting quotes re Pochettino from an article today re their next generation of young players being good (Walker-Peters, Onomah, Carter-Vickers) but not yet good enough. I imagine there are more than a few Spurs fans wanting to give their own youth a chance rather than - as they see it - overspend on Barkley.

 

[davek]

The muppets in the Championship will give him a much more competitive work-out than U23 football. He is going to play in the second flight of professional football in England which although not top flight is still a much better level of football than he has been playing. The lower leagues have produced a lot of very good footballers in the last few years. Southampton have certainly benefited from the "second rate coaches" with players like Bale, Lallana, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain been coached and getting their initial breakthroughs at senior level during their Championship & League 1 years.

David Beckham also went on to have a decent career after some regular Championship football.

He's been playing in our first team.

 

[Goat]

He's been playing in our first team.

Erm, no, he hasnt.

 

[ClausThomsen]

Although I agree with Dowell going on loan (especially with Warburton at the club), you have to say that our recent record of loans resulting in players breaking into the first team has not been particularly impressive:
Ledson - successful loan, sold to club
Lundstram - successful loan, sold to club
Kenny - successful loan, back at EFC, not in first team at the moment
Connolly - successful loan, back at EFC, possible makeweight in Sigurdsson deal?
McAleny - series of unsuccessful loans, released
Grant - loan periods mixed, back at club with little likelihood of first team
Garbutt - was first team, mixed to bad loan periods, back at club with little likelihood of first team
Galloway - was first team, horrible loan period, on loan at Sunderland

On the other hand, look at those youth players who are getting minutes:
Holgate - bought in
Calvert-Lewin - bought in
Lookman - bought in
Davies - never gone on loan

Holgate - 20 senior appearances for Barnsley before his Everton debut.
Calvert-Lewin - 11 senior appearances for Sheff Utd, 5 for Stalybridge Celtic, 20 for Northampton before his Everton debut
Lookman - 45 senior appearances for Charlton before his Everton debut.

It's arguably no coincidence that these players have leapfrogged many academy players into the first team. First team football can be very beneficial regardless of the level. The pressures and expectations are vastly different to U23 level regardless of whether it's Championship, League 1 or below.

 

[Brisan123]

This assumes that all players fit into one regime of progression.


Some players may well benefit from a move to the Championship to learn about game discipline and organisation and acquiring a competitive edge. Others have games that cant be developed by any Championship club because they play a game that is primarily about executing the excellent vision they have by bringing quality players who make quality runs into the game. And no Championship team is likely to improve their technique beyond what it is now.

Dowell is in the latter category all day long. What he should be doing is learning off Rooney how to make what he does telling more often than he makes it now. How on earth can playing with muppets in the Championship and being trained by second rate coaches be a step up from learning at the shoulder of one of the best British players of the past 50 years?

It doesn't make sense. It's a deplorable decision.

Dave were you in favour of Rooney returning
Asking for a friend like

 

[davek]

Learning in training is one thing. Learning on the pitch is another. He can learn from Rooney all day long every week in training, but it's clear he also needs to toughen up to the physical side of the game.

Would you advise Juan Mata, David Silva, Mesut Ozil to 'toughen up'?

There's some terrible points of view amongst our supporters that all our players should be like caged fighters if they look to have a lot of talent.

It's like just having talent isn't enough...it;s not to be trusted unless it's able to smash an opponent to bits too.

This from the fans of a club that prides itself on being called the School of Science...more gladiator school.

Unreal.

 

[Goat]

Would you advise Juan Mata, David Silva, Mesut Ozil to 'toughen up'?

There's some terrible points of view amongst our supporters that all our players should be like caged fighters if they look to have a lot of talent.

It's like just having talent isn't enough...it;s not to be trusted unless it's able to smash an opponent to bits too.

This from the fans of a club that prides itself on being called the School of Science...more gladiator school.

Unreal.

I dont think he needs to toughen up, what he needs is to play every week and learn how football works at a higher level than hes used to.

Whats the issue here? Hopefully he shines and we look forward to his return 12months from now.

 

[davek]

Whereas most of us don't care what others on here think... because a lot of it is nonsense.

We care about what the manager thinks.

The manager cant tell me a thing about this football club...NOT one thing.

 

[atrottel]

Holgate - 20 senior appearances for Barnsley before his Everton debut.
Calvert-Lewin - 11 senior appearances for Sheff Utd, 5 for Stalybridge Celtic, 20 for Northampton before his Everton debut
Lookman - 45 senior appearances for Charlton before his Everton debut.

It's arguably no coincidence that these players have leapfrogged many academy players into the first team. First team football can be very beneficial regardless of the level. The pressures and expectations are vastly different to U23 level regardless of whether it's Championship, League 1 or below.

Sure, I agree that their first-team experience is what got them the moves - I was mainly commenting on how the 'loan system' as currently operated hasn't really worked out that well for our first team prospects.

In fact, if you add Stones and Lukaku who were both young transfers in, you would have a good argument that you would be far better off going to play for another club full time if you wanted to make it in Everton's first team...