2017/18 Kieran Dowell

[ClausThomsen]

He's been playing in our first team.

A zero pressure dead rubber against Krasnodar, 5 minutes or so against Bournemouth and another no pressure dead rubber against Norwich. That's the entirety of his 1st team career. Or are you claiming a promotional game in Tanzania, a kickabout on a training pitch in the Netherlands and a low key sub heavy affair against Genk are representative of genuine first team football?

 

[Paul w]

Would you advise Juan Mata, David Silva, Mesut Ozil to 'toughen up'?

There's some terrible points of view amongst our supporters that all our players should be like caged fighters if they look to have a lot of talent.

It's like just having talent isn't enough...it;s not to be trusted unless it's able to smash an opponent to bits too.

This from the fans of a club that prides itself on being called the School of Science...more gladiator school.

Unreal.

Mate don't put dowell in comparison with them 3.

 

[Woolly Blue]

Although I agree with Dowell going on loan (especially with Warburton at the club), you have to say that our recent record of loans resulting in players breaking into the first team has not been particularly impressive:
Ledson - successful loan, sold to club
Lundstram - successful loan, sold to club
Kenny - successful loan, back at EFC, not in first team at the moment
Connolly - successful loan, back at EFC, possible makeweight in Sigurdsson deal?
McAleny - series of unsuccessful loans, released
Grant - loan periods mixed, back at club with little likelihood of first team
Garbutt - was first team, mixed to bad loan periods, back at club with little likelihood of first team
Galloway - was first team, horrible loan period, on loan at Sunderland

On the other hand, look at those youth players who are getting minutes:
Holgate - bought in
Calvert-Lewin - bought in
Lookman - bought in
Davies - never gone on loan

That might just mean that if they're good enough, they get minutes, but if they're not, then they get sent out on loan in the hope that they improve enough to be good enough ?

 

[Woolly Blue]

The manager cant tell me a thing about this football club...NOT one thing.

You're not fit to lick his boots mate.

 

[mezzrow]

That might just mean that if they're good enough, they get minutes, but if they're not, then they get sent out on loan in the hope that they improve enough to be good enough ?

Not nearly devious enough, wools... This is inconceivable.

 

[ilikecheese]

I think a loan is the perfect thing for this young man.

 

[atrottel]

That might just mean that if they're good enough, they get minutes, but if they're not, then they get sent out on loan in the hope that they improve enough to be good enough ?

Yes, of course, I was just saying that our record on 'improving' promising youngsters with loans who then go on to feature in our first team has not exactly been stellar of late.

 

[Brisan123]

I like the way you're being very sanguine about Dowell being loaned out when you also state that you'd be 'concerned' if Kenny was loaned out too.

Maybe when that happens you'll have a bit more empathy with others who see another talent being punted down the road because they dont fit the perspiration team selection strategy being adopted.

Dave the difference is with Coleman out injured there is a position there for Kenny to fight for
Dowell would play a bit part if any at all this season

 

[Woolly Blue]

Not nearly devious enough, wools... This is inconceivable.

Fair point, and I might be wrong, but I think @atrottel was making the same point.

But what we really need is a good conspiracy theory which involves top Premier League players being sent out on loan to clubs in lower divisions and then they get bought by those clubs in a cunning plan to keep them away from the top table ... err ...

Nope, I'm stuck now.

Yes, of course, I was just saying that our record on 'improving' promising youngsters with loans who then go on to feature in our first team has not exactly been stellar of late.

Yea, I agree mate. But the simplest explanation is that they've not been good enough.

 

[davek]

Erm, no, he hasnt.

Must have been imaging the games this pre-season....

 

[davek]

Dave were you in favour of Rooney returning
Asking for a friend like

No, not really. I didn't oppose it either.

 

[ClausThomsen]

Sure, I agree that their first-team experience is what got them the moves - I was mainly commenting on how the 'loan system' as currently operated hasn't really worked out that well for our first team prospects.

In fact, if you add Stones and Lukaku who were both young transfers in, you would have a good argument that you would be far better off going to play for another club full time if you wanted to make it in Everton's first team...

Maybe our first team prospects haven't been good enough then? It is very rare for a Premier League club to bring through an academy player who goes on to become a regular first team starter, and rarer still for clubs with aspirations of success. Although we have brought through more than quite a few clubs it has been predominantly due to circumstances leading us to depend on younger players. The top clubs generally allow players to develop elsewhere and then buy them when they know that player is capable of dealing with the demands.

And going out on loan is playing for another club full-time.

 

[davek]

I dont think he needs to toughen up, what he needs is to play every week and learn how football works at a higher level than hes used to.

Whats the issue here? Hopefully he shines and we look forward to his return 12months from now.

Exactly....oh, hold on....you think the Chumpionship represents a higher level?

 

[jceverton]

Holgate - 20 senior appearances for Barnsley before his Everton debut.
Calvert-Lewin - 11 senior appearances for Sheff Utd, 5 for Stalybridge Celtic, 20 for Northampton before his Everton debut
Lookman - 45 senior appearances for Charlton before his Everton debut.

It's arguably no coincidence that these players have leapfrogged many academy players into the first team. First team football can be very beneficial regardless of the level. The pressures and expectations are vastly different to U23 level regardless of whether it's Championship, League 1 or below.

How do you account for Kenny, Connolly and Walsh then who've had 59 appearances between them but hardly kicked a ball for Everton?

 

[davek]

A zero pressure dead rubber against Krasnodar, 5 minutes or so against Bournemouth and another no pressure dead rubber against Norwich. That's the entirety of his 1st team career. Or are you claiming a promotional game in Tanzania, a kickabout on a training pitch in the Netherlands and a low key sub heavy affair against Genk are representative of genuine first team football?

They're all at first team level aren't they?