2017/18 Kieran Dowell

[johnnydawg68]

..Koeman is building a team for now, he's made no secret of that. He said he's got a 3 year contract. He also said SW is looking at the longer-term. Nobody will complain if RK builds a successful team, it's what he aims to do. He clearly feels Dowell will not feature in his team this season. He's not going to cut off his nose to spite his face, if he thought Dowell was better than what he has he'd pick him.

I'm a big fan of Dowell. I'm a big fan of Kenny but the Manager has to do what he thinks is right. If he fails we can criticise.

It's a fair point Eggs. Not lost on me. Part of the problem here is lack of communication. I know all managers hate justifying their decisions, but this is OUR club. We're going to be here long after RK is gone. It's just a job to him.

If he came out and said "I rate Dowell but I need to him to go on loan and improve x, y, and z before he can be considered for a 1st team place here, then fair enough. But the truth is we don't know if RK rates any of them. I keep reading things like "{insert young lad here} is highly rated at Everton"...by who? Because we know Unsy does. And probably many others. But if the gaffer doesn't...that's a problem. We have this shining reputation for playing youngsters. It's allowed us to attract the likes of Gibson, Bowler, and the others we've signed this year for the u23s. If that disappears....

 

[Barnfred 55]

Well that was my point? He could be good but he could also play badly and get the DCL treatment. There'd be no winning with whichever decision was made with Dowell.

I really don't know what to make of this one. It's so hard to decide what is better for the development of young players as everyone is different. The wrong loan moves have proved disastrous for the likes of Galloway and Garbutt. But likewise, you only need to look at quality Chelsea players like Loftus Cheek, Chalobah and Solanke to show that staying with the parent club doesn't always work out either.

The problem I have with loans today is we don't have the youth loan scheme anymore. So if it isn't working out for Dowell at Forest there isn't a great deal that we can do about it until the loan finishes. In his favour, I do like Warburton as a manager and he does have history of giving youth a chance, and for playing football that could accommodate a player such as Dowell, so fingers crossed this loan works out well for him.

Personally I'd have liked us to have kept him for the first half of the season. There are a potential 10 games to play in EL during that time and I think European football would suit his game. With the size of our squad he should certainly get regular playing time with superior players than he'll be with at Forest, whilst training with the first team on a daily basis. A decision could then have been made about a half season loan in January.

But what do I know?

I agree it's an incredibly difficult decision to make mate. Here's a post I made yesterday when I first heard about it.

The decisions been made now though so we just have to wish him all the best and hope it works out for him.

 

[DanEFC92]

It's a fair point Eggs. Not lost on me. Part of the problem here is lack of communication. I know all managers hate justifying their decisions, but this is OUR club. We're going to be here long after RK is gone. It's just a job to him.

If he came out and said "I rate Dowell but I need to him to go on loan and improve x, y, and z before he can be considered for a 1st team place here, then fair enough. But the truth is we don't know if RK rates any of them. I keep reading things like "{insert young lad here} is highly rated at Everton"...by who? Because we know Unsy does. And probably many others. But if the gaffer doesn't...that's a problem. We have this shining reputation for playing youngsters. It's allowed us to attract the likes of Gibson, Bowler, and the others we've signed this year for the u23s. If that disappears....

Tbf he may do a wee interview for EvertonTV about Dowell going out on loan - he's done one before for Browning.

 

[Eggs]

It's a fair point Eggs. Not lost on me. Part of the problem here is lack of communication. I know all managers hate justifying their decisions, but this is OUR club. We're going to be here long after RK is gone. It's just a job to him.

If he came out and said "I rate Dowell but I need to him to go on loan and improve x, y, and z before he can be considered for a 1st team place here, then fair enough. But the truth is we don't know if RK rates any of them. I keep reading things like "{insert young lad here} is highly rated at Everton"...by who? Because we know Unsy does. And probably many others. But if the gaffer doesn't...that's a problem. We have this shining reputation for playing youngsters. It's allowed us to attract the likes of Gibson, Bowler, and the others we've signed this year for the u23s. If that disappears....

...I don't suppose the Manager can truly communicate how much he rates a player, JD. They always tend to be supportive but generally speaking they won't truly say what they feel. I think we can only assume what they think by their action. You know how much I like watching Dowell but I can understand why he's not in the first team at this point in time.

I will add that we will have to get used to promising youngsters leaving the club. The Academy is a conveyer belt so players have to be released, even if they are our favourites. I can see us making this pay commercially if we recoup £5m for the likes of Connolly.

 

[atrottel]

If he came out and said "I rate Dowell but I need to him to go on loan and improve x, y, and z before he can be considered for a 1st team place here, then fair enough.

From the press conference yesterday (in response to a question about Kenny):
"Of course, we are looking all about the development of young players. Now what we did with Dowell that was the best way to develop the player. At the end of this pre-season we will take the decision. If Jonjoe Kenny is not really close to a position in the first team, maybe, maybe we will think and we will speak about what the best is to develop the player. They did a great season last season in the under 23s and they need to make the next step. And it's really difficult for young players to get a place in the team"

 

[johnnydawg68]

So, in a season when ManU, City, Chelsea have strengthened, our neighbours arguably as well, Arsenal yet to play their hand and Spurs as well, you are basically saying top 4 or nothing, because you have let some players go who might not really be good enough for premier league football yet?............seems reasonable!

NSNO mate.

 

[davek]

How many red cards in the previous seasons? Cos if it was materially higher your point would lose some of its force.

Oh just had a look, it's 60/71/57 in previous three seasons. And given there's an extra 172 games in the Championship your point has been invalidated.

Lol.

What?!?!

There's extra games, but the number isn't 100% more...which the red cards are.

 

[johnnydawg68]

From the press conference yesterday (in response to a question about Kenny):
"Of course, we are looking all about the development of young players. Now what we did with Dowell that was the best way to develop the player. At the end of this pre-season we will take the decision. If Jonjoe Kenny is not really close to a position in the first team, maybe, maybe we will think and we will speak about what the best is to develop the player. They did a great season last season in the under 23s and they need to make the next step. And it's really difficult for young players to get a place in the team"

Thanks but that's a lot of words that say nothing. Again, I want to place my trust in Koeman, I really do. The Martina thing has shaken me a fair bit, I'm not going to lie. If Martina was 20 and went out and played like that against the Slovaks, would he EVER get a second chance?

 

[atrottel]

Thanks but that's a lot of words that say nothing. Again, I want to place my trust in Koeman, I really do. The Martina thing has shaken me a fair bit, I'm not going to lie. If Martina was 20 and went out and played like that against the Slovaks, would he EVER get a second chance?

Btw, I missed a bit off the beginning of the quote because we were talking about Dowell so I was trying to keep it relevant to him, but essentially he was saying that there is a three-way competition for the right back position and at the end of the pre-season the best one will play. Then it carries on as I quoted.

Added: I know where you are coming from. I could write you a list of the fullbacks I thought would make it from the academy. The last three (not including Connolly and Kenny) are currently:
Everton U23
QPR
Bala Town

 

[johnnydawg68]

Btw, I missed a bit off the beginning of the quote because we were talking about Dowell so I was trying to keep it relevant to him, but essentially he was saying that there is a three-way competition for the right back position and at the end of the pre-season the best one will play. Then it carries on as I quoted.

Added: I know where you are coming from. I could write you a list of the fullbacks I thought would make it from the academy. The last three (not including Connolly and Kenny) are currently:
Everton U23
QPR
Bala Town

I hear you. I just get passionate about this subject, and even though it was before my time the fact that the spine of a lot of great Liverpool teams of the 80's and 90's were built with Evertonians grates at me, and I don't ever want to see it repeated.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

It's a brutal league.

Last season red cards stat:

PL 41 sendings off

Championship: 88 sendings off

Tells its own story.

Nothing to do with the fact that there's 172 more games per season in the Championship than the PL then?

Gotcha lol

 

[davek]

Nothing to do with the fact that there's 172 more games per season in the Championship than the PL then?

Gotcha lol

What are the total number of games per season in the PL and what are the total number of games in the Championship? Is it 100% more? No? Then its red card rate is well in excess of the PLs.

Yeah, banged to rights.

 

[PeregrineT]

Seems if the Championship is so brutal, then when Dowell survives it and comes back to a supposedly less brutal league in the premier league, it will make things much easier for him. Win-win.

 

[davek]

Seems if the Championship is so brutal, then when Dowell survives it and comes back to a supposedly less brutal league in the premier league, it will make things much easier for him. Win-win.

Or he gets an injury.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

What are the total number of games per season in the PL and what are the total number of games in the Championship? Is it 100% more? No? Then its red card rate is well in excess of the PLs.

Yeah, banged to rights.

Your desperation is tragic. The rate is higher but nowhere near the 100%+ that you tried to portray it as, due to the additional 172 games ffs

Sunday league it isn't. It's part of the lads development, as he'll get much more out of the season than being largely in the U23's for us.