2017/18 Kieran Dowell

[Barnfred 55]

He was also awful at the WC with England under20 but because you can see him scoring a couple of great goals on youtube some people think he's ready for our first team. Loan is perfect for him.

No he wasn't awful at all. He played some part in all the games and started most. He was first choice for right hand side of midfield, in a team that won the world cup. I watched all the games apart from the final, and whilst he didn't catch the eye in the same way as some of the players, he scored an important goal and assisted 3 times in 7 games. He affects the outcome of games which is why he was selected by the manager.

I'm one of the lads biggest critics when it comes to his tendency to drift out of games and he also has frequent lapses of concentration which can be dangerous from a defensive viewpoint. Loans are very hit and miss and it's probably 50/50 whether this one will work out or not. But the same can probably be said for him staying at the club and getting bit time in cups and from the bench. You have to accept and trust the clubs judgment on this and hope it works out for the best.

 

[BillLovesRoo]

Its a great argument the "needs to do more" argument.
My opinion is probably a loan is the best move for him, although personally i would of kept him here, got him 10-20 games throughout the season and had him training with the first team every day, i feel that would of been bettter for his deveopment. But if Koeman wasent going to give him game time in those 1st 2 europa qualifiers he wasent going to give him 10-20 appearences throughout the season- so loan best move.

I feel with the "needs to do more" argument, if he does 1-2 game changing things in a match that is enough! Providing you put a player or 2 around him who is willing to do the dirty work etc for them.
Let Gana Gueye do the sideways passing and ball retention, if he plays awesome through ball, or pings a 25 yarder no one remembers a 98% pass completion record.
Coutinho accross the park is the king of that

 

[blueblue]

Its a great argument the "needs to do more" argument.
My opinion is probably a loan is the best move for him, although personally i would of kept him here, got him 10-20 games throughout the season and had him training with the first team every day, i feel that would of been bettter for his deveopment. But if Koeman wasent going to give him game time in those 1st 2 europa qualifiers he wasent going to give him 10-20 appearences throughout the season- so loan best move.

I feel with the "needs to do more" argument, if he does 1-2 game changing things in a match that is enough! Providing you put a player or 2 around him who is willing to do the dirty work etc for them.
Let Gana Gueye do the sideways passing and ball retention, if he plays awesome through ball, or pings a 25 yarder no one remembers a 98% pass completion record.
Coutinho accross the park is the king of that

I think he probably did most of what you suggested last season.

I do believe that he is now ready to play at a competitive level every week and possibly needs to do so now.
A flash of brilliance now and then will not cover for a lack of work rate and he will have a manager and teammates ensuring that he learns this at a less pressurised and less intense situation than he would at Everton.

I think this season is vital for him as it will tell us at what level he is capable of playing at.

 

[Lanolin]

Its a great argument the "needs to do more" argument.
My opinion is probably a loan is the best move for him, although personally i would of kept him here, got him 10-20 games throughout the season and had him training with the first team every day, i feel that would of been bettter for his deveopment. But if Koeman wasent going to give him game time in those 1st 2 europa qualifiers he wasent going to give him 10-20 appearences throughout the season- so loan best move.

I feel with the "needs to do more" argument, if he does 1-2 game changing things in a match that is enough! Providing you put a player or 2 around him who is willing to do the dirty work etc for them.
Let Gana Gueye do the sideways passing and ball retention, if he plays awesome through ball, or pings a 25 yarder no one remembers a 98% pass completion record.
Coutinho accross the park is the king of that

But this is the big issue for me, whether he's actually good enough to be able to do that.

I kept hearing people comparing him to Le Tissier, Berbatov etc who were very much players like that. They didn't necessarily have a huge impact over the course of 90 minutes, but they had breathtaking ability and so were able to justify that by regularly coming up with game changing moments - regular as in being the teams top scorer and getting more than their fair share of assists. When I've seen Dowell he hasn't reminded me of that type of player at all. He's looked more like Bilyaletdinov or Gaston Ramirez, a player who occasionally produces something fantastic but often looks rather pedestrian. Maybe someone who gets you 6/7 goals and has people who watch match of the day going 'that Dowell's unbelievable isn't he?' when you're tearing your hair out watching him every week.

Hopefully regular game time at a good level will help him to get himself into games more, and maybe even blossom into the type of ethereal talent he's been likened to.

 

[Barnfred 55]

But this is the big issue for me, whether he's actually good enough to be able to do that.

I kept hearing people comparing him to Le Tissier, Berbatov etc who were very much players like that. They didn't necessarily have a huge impact over the course of 90 minutes, but they had breathtaking ability and so were able to justify that by regularly coming up with game changing moments - regular as in being the teams top scorer and getting more than their fair share of assists. When I've seen Dowell he hasn't reminded me of that type of player at all. He's looked more like Bilyaletdinov or Gaston Ramirez, a player who occasionally produces something fantastic but often looks rather pedestrian. Maybe someone who gets you 6/7 goals and has people who watch match of the day going 'that Dowell's unbelievable isn't he?' when you're tearing your hair out watching him every week.

Hopefully regular game time at a good level will help him to get himself into games more, and maybe even blossom into the type of ethereal talent he's been likened to.

Guilty as charged. But that's more his languid style and ability to score similar goals than his overall play.

In the modern game I don't think it's fare to compare the two players though as, even if he does develop to hold down a regular place in the team, he'll never get the number of goals Le Tissier did. He was given an absolute free role in the Southampton team and you won't see that now, especially in a Koeman team. Plus Le Tissier didn't start doing it until he was 3 years older than Dowell is, and he was 5/6 years older before he hit his peak.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I think he probably did most of what you suggested last season.

I do believe that he is now ready to play at a competitive level every week and possibly needs to do so now.
A flash of brilliance now and then will not cover for a lack of work rate and he will have a manager and teammates ensuring that he learns this at a less pressurised and less intense situation than he would at Everton.

I think this season is vital for him as it will tell us at what level he is capable of playing at.

Don't think his work rate is that bad to be honest mate. He has this languid style when in possession that gives the impression of laziness, but every time I've seen him he has put in a shift. He isn't a dynamo like Gana, but then not many are. He does drift out of games and also switch off defensively, which I think is more of a concentration issue than any willingness on the players part.

Anyway, fingers crossed the loan works out for him as he is a special talent in the making.

 

[Lanolin]

Guilty as charged. But that's more his languid style and ability to score similar goals than his overall play.

In the modern game I don't think it's fare to compare the two players though as, even if he does develop to hold down a regular place in the team, he'll never get the number of goals Le Tissier did. He was given an absolute free role in the Southampton team and you won't see that now, especially in a Koeman team. Plus Le Tissier didn't start doing it until he was 3 years older than Dowell is, and he was 5/6 years older before he hit his peak.

Yeah that's what I was getting at really.

I think to justify his lack of involvement Dowell would need a free role and nobody is going to give him that, even if he does develop that level of talent.

 

[BillLovesRoo]

But this is the big issue for me, whether he's actually good enough to be able to do that.

I kept hearing people comparing him to Le Tissier, Berbatov etc who were very much players like that. They didn't necessarily have a huge impact over the course of 90 minutes, but they had breathtaking ability and so were able to justify that by regularly coming up with game changing moments - regular as in being the teams top scorer and getting more than their fair share of assists. When I've seen Dowell he hasn't reminded me of that type of player at all. He's looked more like Bilyaletdinov or Gaston Ramirez, a player who occasionally produces something fantastic but often looks rather pedestrian. Maybe someone who gets you 6/7 goals and has people who watch match of the day going 'that Dowell's unbelievable isn't he?' when you're tearing your hair out watching him every week.

Hopefully regular game time at a good level will help him to get himself into games more, and maybe even blossom into the type of ethereal talent he's been likened to.

so our 2nd top scorer last season then?

 

[BillLovesRoo]

Don't think his work rate is that bad to be honest mate. He has this languid style when in possession that gives the impression of laziness, but every time I've seen him he has put in a shift. He isn't a dynamo like Gana, but then not many are. He does drift out of games and also switch off defensively, which I think is more of a concentration issue than any willingness on the players part.

Anyway, fingers crossed the loan works out for him as he is a special talent in the making.

Agree with that myself, during that under 20 world cup, he was always in the right position to help Kenny out, similar to how Pienaar used to help Baines out

 

[Lanolin]

so our 2nd top scorer last season then?

Yes that's right. And everyone agrees that was acceptable don't they? I mean, he got virtually no stick for that at all right?

 

[Quim]

He'll just have to then, at the end of his loan spell (and assuming Koeman actually wants him in the first team...a big assumption as far as I'm concerned), have to re-adapt to the pace of the PL and the better quality of defender he'll inevitably face.

No matter how you cut it he's losing a season.

I can see the sense in loaning out young players who's game is less about touch and weight of pass, but not for a player of this nature.

You think the odd league cup game and a season with the under 23's is better served than a season in the Championship playing in front of fans who demand wins and points?

 

[Barnfred 55]

Yeah that's what I was getting at really.

I think to justify his lack of involvement Dowell would need a free role and nobody is going to give him that, even if he does develop that level of talent.

So if he can sort out his lack of involvement and use that to influence games more we'll all be happy.

Let's hope he can learn to do that at Forest.

 

[blueblue]

Don't think his work rate is that bad to be honest mate. He has this languid style when in possession that gives the impression of laziness, but every time I've seen him he has put in a shift. He isn't a dynamo like Gana, but then not many are. He does drift out of games and also switch off defensively, which I think is more of a concentration issue than any willingness on the players part.

Anyway, fingers crossed the loan works out for him as he is a special talent in the making.

I think that is probably a very good summary of him.

 

[davek]

You think the odd league cup game and a season with the under 23's is better served than a season in the Championship playing in front of fans who demand wins and points?

Why would it mean the odd LC game? We should realistically have about 50 games this season. Why wouldn't he get upward's of a dozen starts from that lot...especially given the clueless nature of this core of first team players?

 

[Goat]

Why would it mean the odd LC game? We should realistically have about 50 games this season. Why wouldn't he get upward's of a dozen starts from that lot...especially given the clueless nature of this core of first team players?

So you would rather he played once a month rather than every week?

Yeah Dave, great way to improve a player.