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Man City fan lets rip...

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I asked the same and a couple of additional questions, but looks like you've tackled it here, so lets deal with the financial doping aspect.

Firstly, what evidence have you got, other than your opinion that their sponsorships are "way above" market value? And even if they are above market value, why is this "doping" but not good negotation?

I mean, given Manchester City have been the most successful team, in the most successful league in the world over the past decade, would you say their sponsorships broadly reflect that positioning, or are "way above "market" value?

Or is this extended to a club who at the time of the deal had won 0 leagues in 31 years, acquiring a sponsorship of up to £100m p/a a far clearer sign of receiving higher than what the market value ought to be (perhaps because of undue influence from big stars such as Le Bron Jmes working with said sponsor and also the owner of said club)?

Finally, why is the word "doping" which is essentially cheating by placing illegal products into your body to gain advantage over opponents invoked? I mean, even if everything above was wholly true (which is a long way from beijgn substantiated) why is raising money seen as the same as injecting illegal products to make yourself better?

Again, as I said in the previous post, I am open to persuasion on this, but I really need to see some firm evidence.
Firstly, what evidence have you got, other than your opinion that their sponsorships are "way above" market value? And even if they are above market value, why is this "doping" but not good negotation?

City themselves accepted they were guilty of this in 2014
- I suppose the point is negotiation implies two parties, not a state moving cash from one entity to another, which is what happened. But for reference, the etihad sponsor ship, from memory was circa 10x the size of the one between Arsenal and Emirates, which should be comparable. There is of course a case to say Arsenal negotiated poorly, but probably not 10 times worse.

Regarding your point on doping, I think it is key to call it financial doping, which is what it is. I would also consider an electric motor snuck into a bike in the tour de france doping, as I would weights in the bottom of a bobsleigh (Cool Runnings style). I don't think it is a term exclusive to PED's, but more an umbrella term for cheating
 
I think the argument is a lot of that traditional Fanbase is gone Pabbers, which is real shame. I was working next to ground a couple of years ago and went along to a mid week PL match as I was at a loose end.

PL (laportes debut) if there was 25000 there thats all.

25k ?? Sorry mate, thats just not true.

Why would you lie liks this ? The attendance was Man City v WBA 2018 attendance:- 53,241.

And NO way would they just double the real fugire ffs!!!
 
Firstly, what evidence have you got, other than your opinion that their sponsorships are "way above" market value? And even if they are above market value, why is this "doping" but not good negotation?

City themselves accepted they were guilty of this in 2014
- I suppose the point is negotiation implies two parties, not a state moving cash from one entity to another, which is what happened. But for reference, the etihad sponsor ship, from memory was circa 10x the size of the one between Arsenal and Emirates, which should be comparable. There is of course a case to say Arsenal negotiated poorly, but probably not 10 times worse.

Regarding your point on doping, I think it is key to call it financial doping, which is what it is. I would also consider an electric motor snuck into a bike in the tour de france doping, as I would weights in the bottom of a bobsleigh (Cool Runnings style). I don't think it is a term exclusive to PED's, but more an umbrella term for cheating

Did they accept they were guilty of that? Or that they breached spending rules and the amount they lost? On the same issue, City have challenged UEFA, said they reject their premise, took them to an impartial court, and won. So from a legal standpoint, I would say it's quite reasonable to assume that is their position now (and in honesty I'm not sure it was ever not their position).

In terms of value, Manchester City's sponsorship was negotiated about 6 years after Arsenals. It was also negotiated from the standpoint of a club that would go on to win (what will now be 5) leagues in the space of a decade. Who would dominate English football.

Arsenal negotiated from the standpoint of a team that have not won the league in the 15 years since. There was substantial inflation into football in the years that followed. Essentially the value of deal x would be worth maybe double, maybe treble between 2004-2009.

I'm also going to have to trouble you for the figures of 10 x the value. I seem to remember the Emirates being worth 20m p/a and City's being around 60m p/a. I know Arsenal's next deal, is worth around 40m p/a (which was signed 3 years ago).

Objectively, if you said to be business 1- will dominate said league,a leageu that have double-treble the exposure of when business 2 did the deal and would get 60-70m per/a soonsorship
Business 2, will not win the league, or even compete for the lst in the next 16 years will get a sponsorship deal of 20m rising to 40m per/annum. Do you think those sponsorships match up? Honestly, if I was scoping the market or pre preparing for a sales strategy, I would say the numbers look about right.

I will ask again, on top of this, in a world where Liverpool can make 100m on shirt sponsorship, who have no won a valid league title in 31 years (only a heavily contested dubious one with a huge break out of season) or United who have not won a league in 7 years (or again been close) would a side who have won 5 leagues in a decade, having a substantially smaller spomsorship agreement- for often much more areas of exposure as not only so far above the market rate that it is unfair, but also that it can be likened to taking banned substances that directly improve performance (widely and rightly considered to be the worst offence in sport)?

I am happy to hear the counter view, but I hope you can see, with the numbers I've provided, it doesn't really make an awful lot of sense to me.
 
I think the argument is a lot of that traditional Fanbase is gone Pabbers, which is real shame. I was working next to ground a couple of years ago and went along to a mid week PL match as I was at a loose end.

PL (laportes debut) if there was 25000 there thats all.

Eh what?


This was Laportes debut. They averaged over 53k that season. It can't have been 25k? Are you getting confused mate?
 
25k ?? Sorry mate, thats just not true.

Why would you lie liks this ? The attendance was Man City v WBA 2018 attendance:- 53,241.

And NO way would they just double the real fugire ffs!!!

I was there - I was baffled by the both the attendance and the reported one. The place was more than half empty
 

Personal photo from the night - Perhaps more than half full, but marginally. I was aghast by the crowd & even your highlights show it's nowhere near 53K

View attachment 119627

You are all over the place.

That picture shows less than 1/4 empty at the very most...so if that applies to the whole ground...the crowd would still be over 40k...which is complete rubbish.

Massive massive red flag on this poster.
 

Spot on PPT - I agree with that, but the original article at the top of this thread suggests City are not owned by a state - that's the point of my arguement. Accept what it is, spend the cash and enjoy it
But they are not owned by a state. Fact. It is a private investment.
Research it if you like. 10% of the club is owned by a US investment group and 10% by a Chinese investment group which he sold for a huge profit on his original investment in the club. He owns a stake in many other businesses. That's what he is - a mega wealthy businessman. You are just perpetuating the stuff the media pump out which is wrong. Also, after the initial significant investment, the club is now profitable and has zero debt. by having zero debt and not doing what FSG & the Glaziers do by taking huge sums of money out of the club every year, means our real, free cash flow is way higher than Liverpool or United and that money is invested in players and not siphoned off. The money spent nowadays comes from what is earned by the club. Example: City have qualified for the Champions League for 10 years in a row. That is more times than Liverpool, United, Chelsea or Arsenal in the last 10 years. During that 10 year period the club has earned circa £550m out of it. That's where the money for the transfers comes from now. You mentioned that our sponsorships are over inflated. No they are not. They are at fair value. This has been investigated and cleared by CAS. Again, just media disinformation that gets swallowed by the sheep. City don't even have the highest wages bill in the PL. Liverpool do and their squad is shockingly poor. Yep - a big chunk of investment was put in at the beginning to buy players such as Aguero, David Silva, Yaya Toure etc but it had to be spent as the drawbridge that is FFP was on the horizon and was being pulled up rapidly. City got over it just in the nick of time and paid the price with the fine that FFP brought with it. It was a calculated investment decision to do that. The scary thing for the other clubs is that City are debt free, profitable and sustainable with plenty of free cash to spend. If the Sheik 'got bored' and did a runner tomorrow it wouldn't actually matter. That's what scares FSG and Liverpool to death. The two business models are poles apart and the longer that stays that way the longer City are going to have the advantage and they know it. Hence the media which is dominated by Liverpool pump out the lies and totally incorrect information that they do by design. There is very much a method and reason to what they do and why they do it. Let's talk about crowds...
City's official average attendance is circa 54,000 a game. Yep - that includes season ticket holders who don't attend as do the crowd figures issued by most if not all PL teams including Liverpool, United and Arsenal. The real average attendance is circa 48,000 with hardly any of the day trippers that Liverpool and United rely on. City have 36,000 season ticket holders with a waiting list. Are those figures really that bad? There was a recent picture in one newspaper showing the empty seats at the Etihad. It transpired the picture was taken in 2016 at a youth team match. Another one that was published was taken at a game when it was half time. You tell me why the media blatantly lie about such things? There has to be a reason doesn't there? Let's talk about 'sportswashing'...
A relatively recent word in the sports vocabulary. It was never mentioned from 2008 to 2011. That's when City weren't winning anything. It wasn't mentioned a lot last season either as Liverpool romped to the title. It's now starting to be mentioned again by the usual media suspects. Coincidence?
Why is sportswashing rarely if ever mentioned about Tennis, golf, F1, horse racing, snooker etc? What's the difference? Will all of the hacks in the media refuse on principal to go to Qatar for the world cup next year due to their human rights abuses? I think we all know the answer to that. They will all have their very large snouts planted firmly in the trough of freebies and hospitality that will be doled out like confetti. Hypocrites is not the word. Look beyond and behind the narrative and media driven agenda it's far more murky that you think. I told you I might get bored at work! :)
 
You are all over the place.

That picture shows less than 1/4 empty at the very most...so if that applies to the whole ground...the crowd would still be over 40k...which is complete rubbish.

Massive massive red flag on this poster.

Ok - ill accept it is more than half full as per that, but my key takeaway is it is no where near full at all.

Apologies for the overegging with half-full / empty; that was from memory, but there was nowhere near the reported number there
 
No. That's football.

The relationship between spending and success is by no means a modern phenomena.
100% this. Successful teams have always bought their way to the top. In the 60s and 70s it was the pools money and television money albeit a small proportion. In the 80s, television money became more prevalent and more income to the clubs. The 90s onwards and money has just gone mad. In the 60s, we spent money on the likes of Alan Ball. In the 70s the rs bought, records at the time, the likes of Dalglish and Souness to continue there success. Again they did it in the 80s with John Barnes and Peter Beardsley. In the 90s Utd did it, Japp Stam, Pallister Yorke and Cole, to name a few. As the game became more global, obviously more money has come into the game, more clubs are looking for the slice of the cake and the established clubs( rs, utd etc) dont like the idea of it it being taken away from them.
 
I used to actively dislike Man City when they first became rich. But as soon as it became clear that it was incredibly unlikely that we’d ever catch them I became apathetic towards them. I don’t mind them at all these days, especially as they wind up the RS Man United.
 
Hopefully for Everton's sake in the near future you will know and understand why we are arsed.
If Everton win the title 4 times in 8 years and the media choose to ignore it and bang on about Liverpool's fantastic achievement in coming second. If you hit a previously unattainable figure of 100 points for a season and they still bang on about Liverpool finishing second. If you are playing some of the best football the league has ever seen and all that get mentioned is the hoof ball tactics of one of your biggest rivals. If Carlo Ancelotti wins the FA cup as the final trophy in an unprecedented domestic treble for Everton and the first question he gets asked after the game from a BBC reporter is 'are you taking a bung from Moshri?' I guess you might raise an eyebrow on the motive of that question? If crap like that went on day in, day out, week in, week out about your club you might be just a tad peeved? As I have posted many times on here, if Carlo starts winning trophies you guys are going to get exactly the same treatment. The Liverpool infested media will make sure of it. All you ask is for credit to be given where it is due. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. Just report what happens on the pitch in a fair, reasoned, objective and unbiased way.
That's it really.
I hear you brother...but you're flogging a dead horse with the media...they only know what they know.
 

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