Martinez: The Reality

[Penno]

I've yet to be converted to the great mission in which my fellow brethren have sworn allegiance, Abdul Hakam.

I'll change your name Abdul

 

[Little Ralphy]

We get the time in Europe to play that way (although if Kiev and others left in that tournament we might face have any sense they'll get behind the ball). I maintain that the system is not the problem. But if you want to play the way he wants to you have to have a better CD unit than we can turn to...and you have to have a player further up the pitch capable of consistently opening defences up when they sit deep causing your passing movements to consistently break down. A little back heel, reverse pass, chip over the top of a defence...we dont have the player to do that and we need to find him if the system wants to thrive.

I’d agree with that, although I think it’s a chicken and egg situation with the system. He’s trying to play an expansive system before he’s got himself the players to do so, which is resulting in a record number of mistakes and us looking massively open. He made the same mistake at Wigan, which is what worries me.


Confidence has gone with the players and it’s snowballed in the league. I personally don’t think the players have been fit enough either, and the slightly slower game in Europe has helped us, especially for players still working on parts of their game like Barkley and Lukaku, as they’ve gotten more time.


A mass clear-out never happens, but he does need to work on refreshing the squad, and making sure he moves out the players not capable of playing his system, and replace them with ones who can (should have done it last Summer). If we start the first day of next season with Naismith anywhere near the starting 11 then we know that he’s not learned a thing.

 

[davek]

I’d agree with that, although I think it’s a chicken and egg situation with the system. He’s trying to play an expansive system before he’s got himself the players to do so, which is resulting in a record number of mistakes and us looking massively open. He made the same mistake at Wigan, which is what worries me.


Confidence has gone with the players and it’s snowballed in the league. I personally don’t think the players have been fit enough either, and the slightly slower game in Europe has helped us, especially for players still working on parts of their game like Barkley and Lukaku, as they’ve gotten more time.


A mass clear-out never happens, but he does need to work on refreshing the squad, and making sure he moves out the players not capable of playing his system, and replace them with ones who can (should have done it last Summer). If we start the first day of next season with Naismith anywhere near the starting 11 then we know that he’s not learned a thing.

Long story short is that we have a set of players who can play on the counter much more comfortably than they can play controlling the ball.

Last season we could do both when required, hence the 21 wins. That was no fluke first season, we earned it by being flexible. Now why largely the same group of players cant reproduce the same is anyone's guess. Injuries to ball players like Osman and Pienaar haven't helped. Neither has the woeful form of Barkley and in and out (mostly out) form of Barry, injury to MCarthy a big loss for a lot of the season also. Even with all that to contend with though we should have been shifting the ball about a hell of a lot quicker. My personal belief is that we break down around the opposition area with no player having a bit of guile to open the lock. Playmaker needed urgently this summer...along with a commanding leader/distributing CB.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

Long story short is that we have a set of players who can play on the counter much more comfortably than they can play controlling the ball.

Last season we could do both when required, hence the 21 wins. That was no fluke first season, we earned it by being flexible. Now why largely the same group of players cant reproduce the same is anyone's guess. Injuries to ball players like Osman and Pienaar haven't helped. Neither has the woeful form of Barkley and in and out (mostly out) form of Barry, injury to MCarthy a big loss for a lot of the season also. Even with all that to contend with though we should have been shifting the ball about a hell of a lot quicker. My personal belief is that we break down around the opposition area with no player having a bit of guile to open the lock. Playmaker needed urgently this summer...along with a commanding leader/distributing CB.

...Dave, genuinely, do you think it's possible his insistence on playing the super-duper-tikka-twatty passing game was 'upped' this year based on last years form, essentially he's felt we could move up a level based on that when, evidently, we can't because - as you've stated - there are links missing preventing that push...???

 

[Stan Lee Park]

The manager has let us all down badly this season.
To now hear him say that he can draw on his experience at Wigan in keeping a team in the Premier League is just about the most depressing statement I've heard this season. Is this what we can look forward to - a few seasons of struggle followed by the inevitable relegation?
I do hope I'm wrong about the manager. Please prove me wrong!

 

[Toffeelover]

The manager has let us all down badly this season.
To now hear him say that he can draw on his experience at Wigan in keeping a team in the Premier League is just about the most depressing statement I've heard this season. Is this what we can look forward to - a few seasons of struggle followed by the inevitable relegation?
I do hope I'm wrong about the manager. Please prove me wrong!

Yep, I read that, he has had four years with teams fighting relegation so he knows and has the experience to handle it. What he did not say was that it was him as manager who got the teams into that fix in the first place.

 

[davek]

Yep, I read that, he has had four years with teams fighting relegation so he knows and has the experience to handle it. What he did not say was that it was him as manager who got the teams into that fix in the first place.

Wigan spent near the least on transfers and wages...that's why they struggled. And not just under Martinez.

 

[Toffeelover]

Wigan spent near the least on transfers and wages...that's why they struggled. And not just under Martinez.

Beg pardon Dave but the previous managers did not take them into the "R" zone. Based on what you are saying why did he not just move on before they were relegated. The real fact is his credentials were not good enough for him to be Everton manager.

 

[Caolam]

I have a bad feeling about tonight. This could be the point in the season when our league form and our Europa form merge and unlike we all hoped our league will be carried into Europe.
I can't believe European teams aren't looking at our league games and learning that if you sit back we can't break you down.
I have a worry that Kiev will try and nullify tonights game and go for a draw.

 

[thirdmantackle]

I have a bad feeling about tonight. This could be the point in the season when our league form and our Europa form merge and unlike we all hoped our league will be carried into Europe.
I can't believe European teams aren't looking at our league games and learning that if you sit back we can't break you down.
I have a worry that Kiev will try and nullify tonights game and go for a draw.

Clean sheet then?
Sweet

 

[Chang Elephant]

We'll have to agree to disagree here, you seem to be generalising a fair bit and dealing in only black and white.

OK mate, I'll agree that I'm generalising, dealing in black and white, and agree your excellent point that Kenwright (after his 26 years on the board, owning a major shareholding, and being chairman) was not misleading fans when he said he had no idea what OOC's were.

 

[Chang Elephant]

As a Kopite I know in work said, "When Steven Naismith is keeping Barkley out of the team, what does it say about either player?"

If you really feel the need to tolerate the Kopite and answer his question, tell him that Naismith is crap, Barkley is being misused, and it says more about Martinez.

 

[davek]

...Dave, genuinely, do you think it's possible his insistence on playing the super-duper-tikka-twatty passing game was 'upped' this year based on last years form, essentially he's felt we could move up a level based on that when, evidently, we can't because - as you've stated - there are links missing preventing that push...???

I've updated this from one posted after the City game in January. Defensive third passing figures are a pretty good indicator of a team 'overplaying' the ball.

These figures suggest that when we have 'upped' the 'super-duper-tika-twatty' passing game, as you describe it, then we've benefitted from it.


Passes in defensive third - 2014/15:

Win
Draw
Loss


v Leicester (A) 124
v Arsenal (H) 106
v Chelsea (H) 96
v WBA (A) 132
v Palace (H) 100
v Liverpool (A) 70
v United (A) 94
v Villa (H) 158
v Burnley (A) 164
v Swansea (H) 80
v Sunderland (A) 65
v West Ham (H) 78
v Spurs (A) 120
v Hull (H) 121
v City (A) 88
v QPR (H) 100
v Southampton (A) 45
v Stoke (H) 99
v Newcastle (A) 60
v Hull (A) 66
v City (H) 52
v WBA (H) 68
v Palace (A) 75
v Liverpool (H) 114
v Chelsea (A) 90
v Leicester (H) 102
v Arsenal (A) 93
v Stoke (A) 67


Average defensive third passes in games won = 117
Average defensive third passes in games drawn= 90
Average defensive third passes in games lost = 85

 

[Brennan]

Beg pardon Dave but the previous managers did not take them into the "R" zone. Based on what you are saying why did he not just move on before they were relegated. The real fact is his credentials were not good enough for him to be Everton manager.

Wigan's net spend in their first three seasons in the Premier League: £11.9m

Wigan's net spend in the four seasons while Martinez was manager: -£9.65m

Might have had something to do with it.

 

[ianefc]

Wigan's net spend in their first three seasons in the Premier League: £11.9m

Wigan's net spend in the four seasons while Martinez was manager: -£9.65m

Might have had something to do with it.

do you have the stats on Moyes net spend (I don't want him back)

Compared to Martinez please