Mason Greenwood

[chrismpw]

It's hard to believe you're that obtuse to the difficulties in actually prosecuting sexual assault Chris.

View attachment 223293

So the audio recording wouldn't be sufficient because it doesn't provide evidence that he did, rather than talked about, raping her. That's the burden of proof that "she" would have to provide, which a reasonable man might accept is pretty bloody hard to do. I suspect many look to the fact that she has gone to the effort to record this as saying it's far from the first time to feel confident that he is a nasty piece of work.

Similarly, it's pretty common for victims of abuse to stay with their abuser (https://ncadv.org/why-do-victims-stay), which as a teacher who presumably went through safeguarding training I'm staggered you aren't aware of. Yet you continue to take the side of the man. It's grim to read.

Bruce I'm surprised that you gave missed my point. I'm trying to be entirely objective. I'm in no position to take anybody's side. Nobody us outside of the full facts.

As I've said now at keast half a dozen times - yes the transcript paints him in a very bad light. The transcript / recording hasn't gone on to be questioned on a court of law, under oath for its veracity, for whatever reason so it is not right for we laypersons to take it out of any context- or God forbid ignire the oossibility of any possible defense (and for crying out loud ... I'm not at all suggesting what he said was defensible), mitigating circumstances or context that may or may not have existed.

My simple argument right from thr very start is that social media is NOT able to cast judgements ir condemn. Opinions are a different matter, but i would always hold my opinion under the caution that I am unaware of all of the facts.

There are others hete who are quite happy to leap in with assumptions and use terms like "probably" followed by whatever bias or imagination they have, to paint a picture worse out of unsubstantiated fantasy. This is also the basis behind racism is it not?

I'm taking no sides. Unlike everybody else here, neither he nor she are personal friends of mine!

 

[COYBL25]

It's hard to believe you're that obtuse to the difficulties in actually prosecuting sexual assault Chris.

View attachment 223293

So the audio recording wouldn't be sufficient because it doesn't provide evidence that he did, rather than talked about, raping her. That's the burden of proof that "she" would have to provide, which a reasonable man might accept is pretty bloody hard to do. I suspect many look to the fact that she has gone to the effort to record this as saying it's far from the first time to feel confident that he is a nasty piece of work.

Similarly, it's pretty common for victims of abuse to stay with their abuser (https://ncadv.org/why-do-victims-stay), which as a teacher who presumably went through safeguarding training I'm staggered you aren't aware of. Yet you continue to take the side of the man. It's grim to read.

There is a specific offence, of " Threatening to commit a sexual offence " .

It`s quite a simple one really :

A threat to commit a sexual offence is made : ie rape.

The person intended the victim to believe or probably believe, that the offence would be comitted.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

It's not like he's such a good player that the club will look beyond the allegations to keep him (such as Ronaldo)

I can only assume that this is financially motivated, in that they can't cut his contract without paying him off because he was never convicted. They can't just stick him in the reserves or make him stay home and run his contract out either, because the PFA would get involved then (regardless of whether he's a berk or not, they have to support players in that kind of situation otherwise it sets a precedent that could hurt players that aren't like that)

Unfortunately the legal system has ballsed up, and now we're seeing the fall out

Not that I feel much sympathy for United though. They're arguably the biggest club in the world. Just pay him to cancel the contract

 

[COYBL25]

It's not like he's such a good player that the club will look beyond the allegations to keep him (such as Ronaldo)

I can only assume that this is financially motivated, in that they can't cut his contract without paying him off because he was never convicted. They can't just stick him in the reserves or make him stay home and run his contract out either, because the PFA would get involved then (regardless of whether he's a berk or not, they have to support players in that kind of situation otherwise it sets a precedent that could hurt players that aren't like that)

Unfortunately the legal system has ballsed up, and now we're seeing the fall out

Not that I feel much sympathy for United though. They're arguably the biggest club in the world. Just pay him to cancel the contract

The legal system didn`t balls up mate.

His partner declined to prosecute and withdrew her allegations, which happens a lot, for a whole variety of reasons in cases like this - see Ryan Giggs also.

Without a complainant / victim, the Crown have no case and have no choice but to withdraw the prosecution.

For certain offences - riot / affray / disorder etc, you don`t need a victim, as the Crown takes on the role of the victim, but in cases of sexual offences you do.

She can be compelled to give evidence, but would be treated as a " hostile witness " and without other any other supporting evidence - statements from others, evidence of sexual assault etc, the Crown would struggle to get it through the evidential test that hey apply to all cases before they are sent to Crown Court - " is there more than a 51% chance of a successful prosecution.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Some Manchester United staff feel deep shame at prospect of Greenwood return

Manchester United staff expect Mason Greenwood to be retained by the club and are divided over that prospect

www.theguardian.com

I was going to be snarky, but there are probably people at United in non-football related roles who probably can't just up and leave their job easily and get one of equal financial return

We are in a cost of living crisis after all

I don't know how I'd feel in a similar situation

I think we'd all like to say that we'd take a stand and quit, but reality and hypoheticals are a different kettle of fish

 

[ChesterBlue]

Some Manchester United staff feel deep shame at prospect of Greenwood return

Manchester United staff expect Mason Greenwood to be retained by the club and are divided over that prospect

www.theguardian.com

I was going to be snarky, but there are probably people at United in non-football related roles who probably can't just up and leave their job easily and get one of equal financial return

We are in a cost of living crisis after all

I don't know how I'd feel in a similar situation

I think we'd all like to say that we'd take a stand and quit, but reality and hypoheticals are a different kettle of fish

I personally would hope that anyone in their right mind wouldn’t be blaming normal employees on normal salaries who are against the idea for not quitting their jobs in a time when the country is in the midst of a financial crisis.

However, I’m not inclined to give the same charity to the people on the footballing side, and the executives (who are predominantly millionaires) for wanting him back.

I have a mate who’s a United fan, and he basically just used whataboutism to point to Partey and Bissouma who weren’t suspended during their charges. I don’t know, if Everton had kept playing Gylfi when he was being investigated and it came to light I would’ve been absolutely furious, and if we then played him because charges were dropped under dubious circumstances I’d be equally furious. Seems to be a case of how much of a blind eye people are willing to turn to their moral compass imo

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

I personally would hope that anyone in their right mind wouldn’t be blaming normal employees on normal salaries who are against the idea for not quitting their jobs in a time when the country is in the midst of a financial crisis.

However, I’m not inclined to give the same charity to the people on the footballing side, and the executives (who are predominantly millionaires) for wanting him back.

I have a mate who’s a United fan, and he basically just used whataboutism to point to Partey and Bissouma who weren’t suspended during their charges. I don’t know, if Everton had kept playing Gylfi when he was being investigated and it came to light I would’ve been absolutely furious, and if we then played him because charges were dropped under dubious circumstances I’d be equally furious. Seems to be a case of how much of a blind eye people are willing to turn to their moral compass imo

I don't think it gets said enough how well we handled that

You can rightly critique the way this club is run in many ways, but compared to a lot of supposed "bigger" clubs, the way we dealt with that situation was exemplary by comparison

 

[PhilM]

The legal system didn`t balls up mate.

His partner declined to prosecute and withdrew her allegations, which happens a lot, for a whole variety of reasons in cases like this - see Ryan Giggs also.

Without a complainant / victim, the Crown have no case and have no choice but to withdraw the prosecution.

For certain offences - riot / affray / disorder etc, you don`t need a victim, as the Crown takes on the role of the victim, but in cases of sexual offences you do.

She can be compelled to give evidence, but would be treated as a " hostile witness " and without other any other supporting evidence - statements from others, evidence of sexual assault etc, the Crown would struggle to get it through the evidential test that hey apply to all cases before they are sent to Crown Court - " is there more than a 51% chance of a successful prosecution.

And this is where it gets difficult. Morally, he's an utter slimeball, and he doesn't sound like the person I'd want near my daughters, or anyone's in fact.

But legally, he's neither faced a jury for any crime nor been convicted of one. You'd hope United would steer well clear of him, but it really isn't that easy.

All we can hope is that they take the correct moral decision, and other teams and fans exert enough pressure on him to hound the amoeba out of the game.

 

[Brett Angell Delight]

And this is where it gets difficult. Morally, he's an utter slimeball, and he doesn't sound like the person I'd want near my daughters, or anyone's in fact.

But legally, he's neither faced a jury for any crime nor been convicted of one. You'd hope United would steer well clear of him, but it really isn't that easy.

All we can hope is that they take the correct moral decision, and other teams and fans exert enough pressure on him to hound the amoeba out of the game.

I am no expert in employment law, but I feel like it really should be.

Everybody knows that the reason he has faced no charges is not his innocence of them. We'll never know whether the evidence that exists, publicly and otherwise, would have been enough to secure a criminal conviction but I'd be flabbergasted if it wasn't enough to satisfy a gross misconduct charge, which should in turn justify summary dismissal of him as an employee.

Even were it more complicated in terms of his contract, United aren't a club that faces financial ruin in the event they terminate his contract and he successfully sues for loss of earnings. They could DEFINITELY afford to pay the remainder of his contract, as a lump or for the remaining duration, and freeze him out until he's gone like we did with GS.

There are a number of things the club could have done, and they seem to have chosen the only terrible option.

I'm sure the club is also in a position to provide resources to help rehabilitate him to whatever extent possible, and help him reintegrate into society. They just shouldn't afford him the enormous privilege of being a top-flight footballer with all that entails.

 

[PhilM]

I am no expert in employment law, but I feel like it really should be.

Everybody knows that the reason he has faced no charges is not his innocence of them. We'll never know whether the evidence that exists, publicly and otherwise, would have been enough to secure a criminal conviction but I'd be flabbergasted if it wasn't enough to satisfy a gross misconduct charge, which should in turn justify summary dismissal of him as an employee.

Even were it more complicated in terms of his contract, United aren't a club that faces financial ruin in the event they terminate his contract and he successfully sues for loss of earnings. They could DEFINITELY afford to pay the remainder of his contract, as a lump or for the remaining duration, and freeze him out until he's gone like we did with GS.

There are a number of things the club could have done, and they seem to have chosen the only terrible option.

I'm sure the club is also in a position to provide resources to help rehabilitate him to whatever extent possible, and help him reintegrate into society. They just shouldn't afford him the enormous privilege of being a top-flight footballer with all that entails.

Mate, don't get me wrong - I agree. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a clause of gross misconduct by bringing the organisation (United) into disrepute.

My point is that it takes the will of United to want to remove him, when there are other parties chipping in - this will come out soon.

 

[f.t.r.s]

Sexual assault and related crimes have a 1% conviction rate
Often the victim is told do you want to give them the satisfaction of a not guilty verdict if the evidence isn't strong enough...
And is it any surprise that an alleged victim of coercive and controlling behaviour Has ended up back with the alleged offender?
Particularly given the child...how many women would want to take the money and potential lifestyle away from their child?
People in abusive relationships often stay based on the promise of a partner changing

 

[Brett Angell Delight]

Mate, don't get me wrong - I agree. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a clause of gross misconduct by bringing the organisation (United) into disrepute.

My point is that it takes the will of United to want to remove him, when there are other parties chipping in - this will come out soon.

Yeah, sorry mate, I know what you were getting at. It's the shouts of "it's not that easy" that bother me.

People seem to think the club have something to fear when it comes to the ramifications of employment law on whatever they decide to do. United are a behemoth in financial terms. As I said, I don't think any kind of financial fallout from binning him off would hurt them, and letting him run down his contract in the wilderness certainly wouldn't. In a day and age where investing seems more about PR/spin than financial performance, I also find it hard to believe it would have any lasting negative effect in the market.

There's one reason alone that the club and a lot of people consider this "a tricky one" or "not easy" and that's deep-rooted, systemic misogyny. I know the wokeness of that phrase will have some - @chrismpw most of all - rolling their eyes, but that doesn't make it any less true.

As someone above said: Our club is shambolic at many, many things but the way we binned a first team player at the first sign of any such wrongdoing is exactly the approach that was required and something we should be proud of, as a fanbase.

 

[Connor]

 

[moggeridge]

Sexual assault and related crimes have a 1% conviction rate
Often the victim is told do you want to give them the satisfaction of a not guilty verdict if the evidence isn't strong enough...
And is it any surprise that an alleged victim of coercive and controlling behaviour Has ended up back with the alleged offender?
Particularly given the child...how many women would want to take the money and potential lifestyle away from their child?
People in abusive relationships often stay based on the promise of a partner changing

disgustingly, a lot of repeat offenders plead not guilty initially because they know that the case's usually fall, charges dropped etc.

this is PR suicide by united imo, regardless of him going to trial or not. as has been mentioned multiple times, all the images, voice notes, videos, whatsapp messages etc were in the public domain for all to see. everyone knows he has committed a crime, yet he is being given a second life.

 

[BlueStevie35]

Oh this isn’t going to end well for United