Mike Walker V Roberto Martinez

[Papa Shango]

Mate there's right, there's wrong, and then there's not even wrong. Have a guess which category your post falls into? It would have to substantially improve to attain wrongness.
The Smith years were grim, he was dour and not a good communicator, but he was a decent man and had character. The club was an absolute circus at that time, avoiding administration by an arse hair, and it would have been very easy for him to just walk away. He stuck it out and kept us up - and yeah anyone can rightfully say it was atrocious football, and it wouldn't have been such a crisis with a better manager, but no one could have managed Everton with distinction at that time, it was just a period to be endured.

You're easily led if you think an oleaginous, self-serving creep like Martinez is 'miles' better than Smith. Martinez was managing us in a period of financial tranquility, inherited a strong side, and molded it into the most supine, unfit, mentally weak collection of losers in living memory. Arlarses have posted on here about the 1951 side being 'not that bad, really' compared to that of 2016. Hence the thread title - Walker v Martinez for worst Everton manager of all time. Smith is not remotely in that conversation.

Self serving creep? Seriously?

That "strong side" he inherited was falling to bits, aging first teamers all over the place, no proper striker at the club and the weak mentality you speak of had been there for years.

Smith had some issues to deal with of course he did, but it was still a better situation than loads of other clubs, most of which he could never manage to finish above, he was also given an awful lot of time and did zero with it.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Compared to Martinez, Smith was exceptional.

Are you kidding me?

Martinez couldn't organise a defence to save his life, but even then he was still better than both Smith and Walker

I mean, I agree with the general consensus that Martinez failed here, but let's not get ridiculous about it

 

[MikeH72]

Are you kidding me?

Martinez couldn't organise a defence to save his life, but even then he was still better than both Smith and Walker

I mean, I agree with the general consensus that Martinez failed here, but let's not get ridiculous about it

I can certainly see the theory behind why people think Smith was better, relatively speaking. Smith never took us forward or even came close, but we stagnated at the level of crapness we were at throughout his time here. He didn't take us backwards at the rapid rate Martinez did.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

I can certainly see the theory behind why people think Smith was better, relatively speaking. Smith never took us forward or even came close, but we stagnated at the level of crapness we were at throughout his time here. He didn't take us backwards at the rapid rate Martinez did.

Martinez at least had one good season and got to two semi finals, which even accounting for the other two crap league campaigns is still more than Smith ever gave us

I think given enough time, both would have relegated us, but at least with Martinez there was a brief period of sunshine before the darkness

I think we're falling into the trap we did during Martinez's reign where we go OTT in bashing the previous manager. I think you can see that the stance from some is softening on Moyes and I think it will continue to do so as the wounds heal over time

I think in future years, with some perspective, the stance on Martinez will also soften. He was a manager who had certain strengths that ultimately collapsed under his own tactical inflexibility and desire to strictly follow a set "philosophy"

Martinez's side was 100 times more interesting and exciting to watch than Smith's ever was

I don't mind straight forward and direct football providing it gets results. Smith played crap togger and had us in the bottom half, so he didn't even have the results argument to override the taste argument

Smith was happy with us trundling along just avoiding relegation every season. Martinez at least aspired for something more, even if he was ill equipped to attain it

 

[MikeH72]

Martinez at least had one good season and got to two semi finals, which even accounting for the other two crap league campaigns is still more than Smith ever gave us

I think given enough time, both would have relegated us, but at least with Martinez there was a brief period of sunshine before the darkness

I think we're falling into the trap we did during Martinez's reign where we go OTT in bashing the previous manager. I think you can see that the stance from some is softening on Moyes and I think it will continue to do so as the wounds heal over time

I think in future years, with some perspective, the stance on Martinez will also soften. He was a manager who had certain strengths that ultimately collapsed under his own tactical inflexibility and desire to strictly follow a set "philosophy"

Martinez's side was 100 times more interesting and exciting to watch than Smith's ever was

I don't mind straight forward and direct football providing it gets results. Smith played crap togger and had us in the bottom half, so he didn't even have the results argument to override the taste argument

Smith was happy with us trundling along just avoiding relegation every season. Martinez at least aspired for something more, even if he was ill equipped to attain it

But I think that's where you've got to look at the resources available to both. Martinez was left a squad that regularly finished in the top 6/7 and spent a load of money to "improve" it. Smith when he was in Scotland and had better resources than anyone else, won everything. Not saying he'd have done that with us because he obviously wouldn't, but it'd be interesting to see what would have happened in a parallel universe where Smith took over the Moyes era squad and Martinez took over the one Smith inherited in 1998.

On the last paragraph, don't you think that a good manager would realise his own limitations and his squad's, and adjust accordingly for the benefit of the football club rather than his own misguided ego trip to play like Barcelona? At Wigan he tried to turn Gary Caldwell into Pique, Victor Moses into Messi and James McArthur into Busquets, relegation was inevitable and everyone could see it, yet he persisted and they continued to get battered. You can say that's bold and innovative, that it's refreshing to see a young manager shooting for the stars, but I call it naive and idiotic.

 

[deipnosophist]

Only the ignorant (either willfully, or neuron deficient) would describe either manager to be anything approaching 'decent'.
Both Walker and Martinez should be consigned to the dustbin of Everton history.
Abominations the pair of 'em.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

But I think that's where you've got to look at the resources available to both. Martinez was left a squad that regularly finished in the top 6/7 and spent a load of money to "improve" it. Smith when he was in Scotland and had better resources than anyone else, won everything. Not saying he'd have done that with us because he obviously wouldn't, but it'd be interesting to see what would have happened in a parallel universe where Smith took over the Moyes era squad and Martinez took over the one Smith inherited in 1998.

On the last paragraph, don't you think that a good manager would realise his own limitations and his squad's, and adjust accordingly for the benefit of the football club rather than his own misguided ego trip to play like Barcelona? At Wigan he tried to turn Gary Caldwell into Pique, Victor Moses into Messi and James McArthur into Busquets, relegation was inevitable and everyone could see it, yet he persisted and they continued to get battered. You can say that's bold and innovative, that it's refreshing to see a young manager shooting for the stars, but I call it naive and idiotic.

What's often forgotten is that during Smith's 9 in a row glory years in Scotland, Celtic were an utter mess and almost went out of business entirely before Fergus Mccann bailed them out, so even during his most successful period he was essentially operating in a one team League

If he'd've inherited Moyes team, I can almost guarantee you that he wouldn't have gone for Lukaku, the catalyst for our success, and thus we'd've bumbled around in mid table and gradually sunk over time. Martinez gave us at least one good season before that, where we played some nice stuff and annihilated Arsenal at Goodison

And yes, Martinez was both naive and thoroughly stubborn, to his detriment, but even with that he was still better than Smith, which only highlights how utterly "meh" Smith really was

 

[deipnosophist]

What's often forgotten is that during Smith's 9 in a row glory years in Scotland, Celtic were an utter mess and almost went out of business entirely before Fergus Mccann bailed them out, so even during his most successful period he was essentially operating in a one team League

If he'd've inherited Moyes team, I can almost guarantee you that he wouldn't have gone for Lukaku, the catalyst for our success, and thus we'd've bumbled around in mid table and gradually sunk over time. Martinez gave us at least one good season before that, where we played some nice stuff and annihilated Arsenal at Goodison

And yes, Martinez was both naive and thoroughly stubborn, to his detriment, but even with that he was still better than Smith, which only highlights how utterly "meh" Smith really was

The expression 'damned with faint praise' springs to mind...

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

The expression 'damned with faint praise' springs to mind...

Martinez failed here, so I'm hardly going to big him up am I? But even still, the fact remains that as disappointing as his reign ultimately became, there were managers who did far worse

He's above Walker, Smith and Kendall Mk3 IMO

Lee, Harvey, Moyes, Royle, Kendall in his prime and Catterick are all above him IMO

Koeman is exempt from the list currently as it's too early to pass judgement on him

 

[deipnosophist]

Martinez failed here, so I'm hardly going to big him up am I? But even still, the fact remains that as disappointing as his reign ultimately became, there were managers who did far worse

He's above Walker, Smith and Kendall Mk3 IMO

Lee, Harvey, Moyes, Royle, Kendall in his prime and Catterick are all above him IMO

Koeman is exempt from the list currently as it's too early to pass judgement on him

yes mate, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Martinez was better than Walker....but it's a 'tallest dwarf' competition.

 

[Nil Satis Niasse Optimum]

Walker helped us win one of our several Escape From Relegation trophies of the nineties, a massive achievement for us at the time. Can't thank him enough. All Martinez did was grab two 11th placed trophies while having players such as Baines, Coleman, Stones, Barkley, Deulofeu and Lukaku at his disposal. A disgraceful performance.

 

[ianefc]

Mate there's right, there's wrong, and then there's not even wrong. Have a guess which category your post falls into? It would have to substantially improve to attain wrongness.
The Smith years were grim, he was dour and not a good communicator, but he was a decent man and had character. The club was an absolute circus at that time, avoiding administration by an arse hair, and it would have been very easy for him to just walk away. He stuck it out and kept us up - and yeah anyone can rightfully say it was atrocious football, and it wouldn't have been such a crisis with a better manager, but no one could have managed Everton with distinction at that time, it was just a period to be endured.

You're easily led if you think an oleaginous, self-serving creep like Martinez is 'miles' better than Smith. Martinez was managing us in a period of financial tranquility, inherited a strong side, and molded it into the most supine, unfit, mentally weak collection of losers in living memory. Arlarses have posted on here about the 1951 side being 'not that bad, really' compared to that of 2016. Hence the thread title - Walker v Martinez for worst Everton manager of all time. Smith is not remotely in that conversation.

Great post mate. Agree with every word.

 

[hktoffee]

But I think that's where you've got to look at the resources available to both. Martinez was left a squad that regularly finished in the top 6/7 and spent a load of money to "improve" it. Smith when he was in Scotland and had better resources than anyone else, won everything. Not saying he'd have done that with us because he obviously wouldn't, but it'd be interesting to see what would have happened in a parallel universe where Smith took over the Moyes era squad and Martinez took over the one Smith inherited in 1998.

On the last paragraph, don't you think that a good manager would realise his own limitations and his squad's, and adjust accordingly for the benefit of the football club rather than his own misguided ego trip to play like Barcelona? At Wigan he tried to turn Gary Caldwell into Pique, Victor Moses into Messi and James McArthur into Busquets, relegation was inevitable and everyone could see it, yet he persisted and they continued to get battered. You can say that's bold and innovative, that it's refreshing to see a young manager shooting for the stars, but I call it naive and idiotic.

The argument of the pro guys is he won the FA Cup which I think it is not good enough to use as an excuse. Look where is Wigan now and no one will ever care if they have won a cup in 2013 or not, they are going down to League 1.

If you take away the freak season, the winning rate of Martinez last two seasons (reasons why he was sacked) was 29.33% which is similar to Smith's 28.67%. Like you said Martinez was inherited with a top 6/7 squad with fair amount to spend.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Someone should go to the other end of the spectrum and do Catterick Vs Kendall, and then do Lee Vs Moyes for the middle ground title

 

[Papa Shango]

The argument of the pro guys is he won the FA Cup which I think it is not good enough to use as an excuse. Look where is Wigan now and no one will ever care if they have won a cup in 2013 or not, they are going down to League 1.

If you take away the freak season, the winning rate of Martinez last two seasons (reasons why he was sacked) was 29.33% which is similar to Smith's 28.67%. Like you said Martinez was inherited with a top 6/7 squad with fair amount to spend.

I bet you Wigan fans cared about it. It will probably be their greatest ever achievement.

I dont care what he did at Wigan though.

Martinez inherited a squad that was creaking. Distin, Osman, Hibbert, and Howard were all regulars under Moyes and all of them were nearing the end of their careers/usefulness.

He also had no strikers of any note in the squad. Jelavic was broke, Anichebe was...well Anichebe. He did have some money, he spent most of it on a striker who we needed desperately and who may not have even came here if Martinez had not got him in the first place.

Martinez failed in the end, we all know that but I am not going to pretend that he has this brilliant squad to work with, there was a lot of work to be done with that squad (who won the square root of bugger all by the way). There still is work to be done as the flaws have still not been rectified.