New Everton Stadium

[CRIMHEAD]

Weren't they included in the announcement of the design back in the summer?

Did those not count?

 

[RobSpurs]

However the bottom line is, if BMD is the great solution it should stand up to comparison and scrutiny..... and just like Kirkby we're still yet to see the redevelopment options. Spurs and Arsenal could publish plans for redevelopment of their old grounds..... we still haven't!

Are you talking about the legacy plans if the club moves to BMD, or do you mean the club should be showing what's possible with Goodison as a home stadium? I'm just trying to understand your comparison to us and the other lot.

 

[Lanolin]

I don't disagree about their dominance etc but there are non-league clubs with more than 20 boxes. We're supposedly building for the future and corporate offering is less dependent on affiliation as shown by Spurs having as much corporate as Arsenal despite the disparity in success..... and Even little old Brentford having 3000 corporate seats.


Were either of us alive in 1820? Where you alive in 1993 and afterwards when they cleared that end and Goodison Avenue....? If not you can rest assured that no-one batted an eyelid when they knocked down over 70 houses at the Park end. It was just accepted that Everton needed to build a new stand. The same happened all over the country. Far more houses have been knocked down at several sites in Liverpool since then. This would be a tiny requirement in comparison to all of those developments. So, no need for the faux disdain because LFC did what we'd done previously.

I haven't mentioned LFC once, I only commented on your attitude to people being kicked out of their homes, which I find abhorrent. I was alive in 1993, but very much a child, not old enough to realise the significance of such a move, or to do anything about it. That doesn't mean I think it should be encouraged now.

In terms of the redevelopment of Goodison, I'm very much of the opinion that it's a bit of a 'Trigger's broom' situation. If all the stands are new, and the area around the ground is completely changed, is it still Goodison? I'm not sure it is personally, so complete redevelopment isn't really appealing to me personally.

 

[wainy]

I don't disagree about their dominance etc but there are non-league clubs with more than 20 boxes. We're supposedly building for the future and corporate offering is less dependent on affiliation as shown by Spurs having as much corporate as Arsenal despite the disparity in success..... and Even little old Brentford having 3000 corporate seats.


Were either of us alive in 1820? Where you alive in 1993 and afterwards when they cleared that end and Goodison Avenue....? If not you can rest assured that no-one batted an eyelid when they knocked down over 70 houses at the Park end. It was just accepted that Everton needed to build a new stand. The same happened all over the country. Far more houses have been knocked down at several sites in Liverpool since then. This would be a tiny requirement in comparison to all of those developments. So, no need for the faux disdain because LFC did what we'd done previously.

Sorry mate, we’re never gonna redevelop Goodison in a million years, so why the pure bore off about it.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Tom genuine question
Are you an architect or involved in the building industry
In 10 years on here all your posts are solely on ground moves / new builds and redevelopment of Goodison Park
With a 10 yr gap in postings
Nothing at all on the team

I posted again because somebody notified me about the thread, and what they thought needed a response.

I tend to discuss the footy before and after the match with mates, or when i play 5s or 7s (aged 55yrs)and very rarely on forums nowadays. Used to mainly go on the people's forum or TW occasionally.

I see the stadium decision as the biggest in the clubs history and have some reservations about the process to date obviously would like greater transparency.

I am a Design/Marine Engineer by trade. I have always been interested football stadia and their design, and have had some involvement in stadium structural projects in ths past. I actually wrote a thesis about redeveloping GP over 20yrs ago. ..... and KEIOC used some of that at the time of the destination Kirkby debacle.

As far as Evertonian credentials, I've been a season ticket holder for over 40yrs and shareholder for 25yrs. I'm certainly not a troll if that's what you're thinking.

 

[Toffeelover]

Firstly, like LFC, EFC and their stadia long predate any local residents who may have chosen to move next door to them in the knowledge that one day they may wish to expand.

Secondly, EFC have already knocked down dozens of houses at both the Park end and Gwladys Street ends of the ground. In fact we did it long before LFC.... so let's not try to claim that moral high ground, as that horse has long bolted, if it ever existed at all. Or did you complain when those happened?

Thirdly, literally thousands of homes have been knocked down all over Liverpool for various redevelopment schemes. Why wouldn't the world famous Goodison merit similar consideration as a joint venture redevelopment catalysts for our side of Stanley Park?

Your first paragraph is nonsense, folk did not get their houses envisaging thy would have to leave to accommodate an expansion in the football stadiums.

Second paragraph did EFC leave houses derelict around the non selling residents like our neoghbours, and were the residents at odds with our club like like at Anfield.

Third para, I was never for sharing a ground with that lot.

 

[Brisan123]

I posted again because somebody notified me about the thread, and what they thought needed a response.

I tend to discuss the footy before and after the match with mates, or when i play 5s or 7s (aged 55yrs)and very rarely on forums nowadays. Used to mainly go on the people's forum or TW occasionally.

I see the stadium decision as the biggest in the clubs history and have some reservations about the process to date obviously would like greater transparency.

I am a Design/Marine Engineer by trade. I have always been interested football stadia and their design, and have had some involvement in stadium structural projects in ths past. I actually wrote a thesis about redeveloping GP over 20yrs ago. ..... and KEIOC used some of that at the time of the destination Kirkby debacle.

As far as Evertonian credentials, I've been a season ticket holder for over 40yrs and shareholder for 25yrs. I'm certainly not a troll if that's what you're thinking.

Not at all Tom
Just curious as to the interest in BMD/GP and you have answered my questions
Many thanks

 

[Tom Hughes]

I haven't mentioned LFC once, I only commented on your attitude to people being kicked out of their homes, which I find abhorrent. I was alive in 1993, but very much a child, not old enough to realise the significance of such a move, or to do anything about it. That doesn't mean I think it should be encouraged now.

In terms of the redevelopment of Goodison, I'm very much of the opinion that it's a bit of a 'Trigger's broom' situation. If all the stands are new, and the area around the ground is completely changed, is it still Goodison? I'm not sure it is personally, so complete redevelopment isn't really appealing to me personally.

You didn't have to mention it.... the inference was obvious, and you know it. The argument is also disingenuous. The university and I surveyed many of the residents in the surrounding streets in the 90s. At that time several were 3rd part tenants of the club, but a high proportion of the rest were very receptive to the idea of moving for a good offer. Lets face it, if its costing £100m just to prep BMD, just a tiny percentage of that would see all these tenants and landlords bite the club's hands off.... and your abhorrence would be suitably avoided. It would also avoid the backlash from the residents of Vauxhall (who have yet to receive any notifications about impact on their homes on matchdays by the club)... is it abhorrent that someone is dropping a football stadium on their doorstep too? As i said, these arguments are almost disingenuous in relation to the actual facts and issues.

As regards redevelopment I dont believe anyone regards Anfield, Old Trafford, St James's, Villa Park etc as anything but evolutions of themselves. Similarly with the Bernabeu, San Siro, Nou Camp etc..... all continuously redeveloped over the years. Similarly Goodison Park as it is now.... it certainly wasn't built like it is now in 1892.

Fact is, redevelopment is the only way that a club can build in affordable phases to manage costs and judge actual demand as they go. A lot of blues are arguing that BMD is too small at 52k. We dont know if that has been because of logistics, construction costs, site restraints, poor demand or any combination thereoff. However, it can be readily shown that just rebuilding on the Bullens and Park end alone can yield a greater capacity. So if the choice went from you can have 52k and 20 boxes at BMD for £600m and the resultant interest costs, or you can have 54k unobstructed views and say 50 boxes at GP for £100-150m, or say 61,878 with 70 boxes for £150-200m.... then Trigger's broom might start to look the safer and better option.

 

[Jacko93]

I read your post completely.... i had answered most of your assertions using scale site drawings and sketches.

I prefer facts and figures. BMD will never be the heart of the city. At the very best it will be at the very edge of a waterfront extension of the city centre. A site neighbouring a sewage plant, that is literally only a couple of hundred metres closer to Lime Street Stn than Goodison is now..... but with only a tiny fraction of the road traffic lanes serving it from all directions.

Clarence Dock would've been better logistically (and in terms of enabling potential), and the Loop site was bigger and would've been far superior again as it literally is on top of town with several thoroughfares feeding it in all directions.

However the bottom line is, if BMD is the great solution it should stand up to comparison and scrutiny..... and just like Kirkby we're still yet to see the redevelopment options. Spurs and Arsenal could publish plans for redevelopment of their old grounds..... we still haven't!

BMD will be nearer to the heart of the city than GP will ever be. You are also assuming that a main form of transport to the ground will be personal vehicles, just one of many outdated assumptions. There will be plenty of transport options, maybe not all on the day of opening, but there will be plenty. Routes for pedestrians will be available on the waterfront with new accessible walkways, as well as access from the North, from the South and from the East.

Remodelling GP isnt impossible, but that doesn't mean its viable commercially, or for the community in which it lives.

 

[alvinh]

I posted again because somebody notified me about the thread, and what they thought needed a response.

I tend to discuss the footy before and after the match with mates, or when i play 5s or 7s (aged 55yrs)and very rarely on forums nowadays. Used to mainly go on the people's forum or TW occasionally.

I see the stadium decision as the biggest in the clubs history and have some reservations about the process to date obviously would like greater transparency.

I am a Design/Marine Engineer by trade. I have always been interested football stadia and their design, and have had some involvement in stadium structural projects in ths past. I actually wrote a thesis about redeveloping GP over 20yrs ago. ..... and KEIOC used some of that at the time of the destination Kirkby debacle.

As far as Evertonian credentials, I've been a season ticket holder for over 40yrs and shareholder for 25yrs. I'm certainly not a troll if that's what you're thinking.

I've read your work on Toffeeweb in the past Tom and always found it of value.

I was always in favour of redeveloping Goodison if possible, because of the memories and the fact that even now as dated as it's become it's still a special ground. I think that ship has sailed though, don't think the club have been thinking that way for many years now. Ironic that LFC who were the ones fixated on a new ground have redeveloped Anfield and EFC are the ones looking at a new build.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Sorry mate, we’re never gonna redevelop Goodison in a million years, so why the pure bore off about it.

Why read it or respond.... ? Perhaps you wers less bored than you're saying?

 

[tommye]

The one thing I've learnt from Tom's posts is that he is an absolute crushing bore.
That's about it really.

As you were gentlemen

 

[Tom Hughes]

BMD will be nearer to the heart of the city than GP will ever be. You are also assuming that a main form of transport to the ground will be personal vehicles, just one of many outdated assumptions. There will be plenty of transport options, maybe not all on the day of opening, but there will be plenty. Routes for pedestrians will be available on the waterfront with new accessible walkways, as well as access from the North, from the South and from the East.

Remodelling GP isnt impossible, but that doesn't mean its viable commercially, or for the community in which it lives.

Birkenhead is nearer the city centre, would you suggest putting it there?

I'm not assuming anything regarding transport.... I'm also not inventing public transport that isn't there already. The Northern Line is a great asset but at present it can only move approx 6000 people per hr in both directions. It also doesn't serve the vast majority of the main connurbation, and in anycase Sandhills is actually further from BMD than GP is from Kirkdale. Therefore, in the absence of public transport, how are we all going to get there? The dock road is getting reduced to one lane each way as we speak. Great Howard St is already very busy and is barely served by any buses. So it looks like we're all walking from town which is over 1.5 miles from Liverpool 1, and over 2 miles from Lime St Stn. How are the shuttle busses going to negotiate the few traffic lanes available to move the numbers required?

 

[Tom Hughes]

The one thing I've learnt from Tom's posts is that he is an absolute crushing bore.
That's about it really.

As you were gentlemen

Sorry, i thought it was a discussion forum about the stadium.
I think the fact that I hadn't posted in 10yrs would suggest that i don't just post anything without thinking about it first..... if you're not interested don't read it.... easy!

 

[firefighterblue]

The two old ladies were on the Kemlyn Rd side in the 70's- 80's. That wouldn't happen nowadays as new CPO laws would speed up the process. The houses around GP are literally the cheapest houses near to ANY football stadium in the UK. We would also not need to knock whole streets down to add say 5,000-8,000 on that side alone.... making it a completely unobstructed stand, with new lounge spaces and boxes and a proper overlapping format bringing everyone closer to the action in a more traditional format.

The two old ladies were on the Kemlyn Rd side in the 70's- 80's. That wouldn't happen nowadays as new CPO laws would speed up the process. The houses around GP are literally the cheapest houses near to ANY football stadium in the UK. We would also not need to knock whole streets down to add say 5,000-8,000 on that side alone.... making it a completely unobstructed stand, with new lounge spaces and boxes and a proper overlapping format bringing everyone closer to the action in a more traditional format.

I can agree with some of your points but for me the ship has now sailed. Some people will move gladly but we only need one or two to drag their feet and it could drag on for years even with CPO.
So if 2 old ladys said they were not moving imagine the bad publicity. Local councillors and residents would take their side. Court proceedings etc. I remember the houses at the park end but wasn't aware of houses on gwladys st being knocked down. If we knocked the stands down to create new bigger stands we would then need new concourse which would require more houses being bought up. All as I have said could take years even with cpo rules.
As much as I love goodison I can't wait for the new stadium now.