New Everton Stadium

[catcherintherye]

It shouldn't be falling to the Mayor of any city telling any football club anywhere when its new stadium is going to be ready, especially as there must be 526 variables at play here to be resolved comprising a good many unknown unknowns, to use Donald Rumsfeld speak.

We're being seen by LCC as an easy option to regenerate the area around Croxteth when no one else, including themselves, can be found to do so. In comparison, it's never going to be that hard to fill the old dock areas with student accommodation blocks and hotels.

This is basically it. I think Andersons comments are trying to win aspects of the fanbase over to the "easy" solution of Croxteth over the complex discussions around the Waterfront. It's a cynical tactic and we should be wary of it.

 

[deipnosophist]

Check out Liverpool Waters albeit on Wikipedia and your monorail lust will be partially sated.

checked it out...very impressive.

Let's take a vote then:
Simon?...yes
Amanda ?...yes
David?...a big yes
Deipnosophist?...and it's a big yes from me. Congratulations, you've got 4 yesses.

 

[Stan Lee Park]

This is basically it. I think Andersons comments are trying to win aspects of the fanbase over to the "easy" solution of Croxteth over the complex discussions around the Waterfront. It's a cynical tactic and we should be wary of it.

Or maybe Stonebridge is a realistic option where Liverpool Waters is not?

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

I'd rather risk losing world heritage status to create a world class football stadium surrounded by bars and other hospitality which would create jobs and strengthen Liverpool's economy, yes.

Do you have evidence that world heritage status is more valuable than that ?

Not sure what your blabbering about with the bolded bit.

Do you have any evidence world heritage status isn't? Turning your nose up at it doesn't make you some sort of authority.

So all those tourists from around the planet would want to sail down the Mersey for the express purpose of seeing a stadium, would they? I doubt it. Sure, it'd be a pleasurable experience, but not everyone likes football - plenty like to visit cities with world heritage sites.

I'm sure a waterfront stadium, minus world heritage status'd be a major selling point for the likes of the city as a whole, or for Cunard, P&O etc...

(In the condescending, sanctimonious style of yours)

"Come and see Everton's new stadium....It's in that Liverpool, where they used to have world heritage status until the stadium was a factor in putting shot to that"

(If it would - I don't know)

There are alternatives (Like the Collins playing fields) which would be visible from the waterfront, would have no impact on WHS; nor would they require any involvement or agreement from peel holdings - and would STILL create jobs and strengthen the economy.

If UNESCO say it'll affect the status, then I doubt the council will risk it, is what I was saying.

As for the happy fella bit - it's your contrary attitude towards everyone & everything. It's not cool, so I suggest you try being a bit more affable.

 

[TheFinnFan]

I think we are all surmising really (apart from the lads who have more insider knowledge). Anderson is clearly looking to develop all areas of Liverpool. There are clearly bits that will not take a lot of work and other bits that will quire an awful lot more effort for not a great amount of reward.

I am not trying to run Croxteth down but it will never have the potential the waterfront does. In simple supply and demand terms he will have cues of people wanting to invest at the Waterfront but very few for Croxteth. There will also be bigger logistical problems with the Waterfront options and a lot of headaches for him. Purely on a simplicity level sticking us out in Croxteth is an easy solution for him. I don't blame him he must hope some of the work City have done in Manchester could be done there, it would be a big coup for him. Then you have the issue of the commonwealth games, again this would be a major coup for him. I think he sees two birds with one stone.

I don't think he has taken too seriously the idea of Everton on the Waterfront. From his perspective it doesn't solve the Croxteth issue. I think there will be a lot of horse trading between the club and Anderson but he will try to shoehorn is into Croxteth. However if we are to build on the waterfront one compromise Everton may have to give is they are prepared to link it to a Commonwealth bid. It would help with planning and selling it to the electorate. It's a compromise I'd make if we had too, but we may not have too.

Ultimately I can see now why Anderson and the last Everton board got nowhere on this issue and fell out. They are mirror images of one another. They are both essentially looking to sponge off the other to get something for nothing. With the new team in town we have a different outlook now. I think Major Anderson's may have worked 12 months ago but not so sure we'll be quite as keen to relocate to Croxteth. The fact Waterside locations are even being mentioned shows a change.

Croxteth. what kind of are is that exactly? atm....and what it could be in the future?

 

[catcherintherye]

Or maybe Stonebridge is a realistic option where Liverpool Waters is not?

I think that is a fair post, you can certainly interchange the words "easy" with "realistic" dependant on your perspectives. I think what is realistic or possible is not a fixed thing. There is always space and opportunities to move things, close shops etc but understandably there will be a question of whether they want to do that. You have a guy here on goggle plus showing you could fit a 60k stadium in a fairly vacant space. Liverpool Waters is itself testament to the fact that nothing is impossible but it takes ambition, a clear plan and a persuasive case. They are building skyscrapers out of nothing.

I don't doubt that there is the potential to fit a Stadium along one of the docks along the front. The fact Kings Dock got so close says there is a chance. It will be very difficult. Some residents will be very upset, some shop owners may feel it takes trade away, matchdays will be massively chaotic in a busy area, the police may not want it, then you have the World Heritage stuff which is not only important in itself but the Council won't want to be seen to be undermining this as it does bring visitors. All of these things stand against us. They made it difficult and unrealistic especially in consideration to Croxteth. This is before you then allay fears of commercial partners, those you are buying the land off, people who you may have to move and other people involved in the project as to whether they want to be associated with you.

That doesn't make it impossible though. It also doesn't mean that the council are a benign impartial force in this, they clearly want Stonebridge redeveloped and a stadium to use for the bid. With the right business plan it can be done. We may have to put compromises in but for me they are worth it.

I don't disagree with you. All I would say is Stonebridge is more realistic but Liverpool Waters is far better.

 

[catcherintherye]

Do you have any evidence world heritage status isn't? Turning your nose up at it doesn't make you some sort of authority.

So all those tourists from around the planet would want to sail down the Mersey for the express purpose of seeing a stadium, would they? I doubt it. Sure, it'd be a pleasurable experience, but not everyone likes football - plenty like to visit cities with world heritage sites.

I'm sure a waterfront stadium, minus world heritage status'd be a major selling point for the likes of the city as a whole, or for Cunard, P&O etc...

(In the condescending, sanctimonious style of yours)

"Come and see Everton's new stadium....It's in that Liverpool, where they used to have world heritage status until the stadium was a factor in putting shot to that"

(If it would - I don't know)

There are alternatives (Like the Collins playing fields) which would be visible from the waterfront, would have no impact on WHS; nor would they require any involvement or agreement from peel holdings - and would STILL create jobs and strengthen the economy.

If UNESCO say it'll affect the status, then I doubt the council will risk it, is what I was saying.

As for the happy fella bit - it's your contrary attitude towards everyone & everything. It's not cool, so I suggest you try being a bit more affable.

You are right to say that we can't ignore UNESCO. I don't think taking an adversarial stance will help us. Yes a stadium could probably bring in more money but what the WHS stuff is about a much longer view. It is comparing apples with pears and people see you can't put a price on that. It would be very damaging for Evertons brand if we were seen to be destroying a central part of the City of Liverpool's history and the reasoning of having more money won't ease public perception.

The Council will also not back any plan that sees us played off against them. It is a needless risk. If the want to do it properly it will open a dialogue with UNESCO and make it clear that we are looking to add not detract from the WHS. As I've indicated a well placed donation, perhaps an honory box at the stadium and making them a partner would go a long way. Linking the new ground to the tradition of the Mersey would be the key.

 

[Onwards Evertonians]

Croxteth. what kind of are is that exactly? atm....and what it could be in the future?

It's a council estate and this site was cleared of housing for trams that never happened.

 

[catcherintherye]

Croxteth. what kind of are is that exactly? atm....and what it could be in the future?

I'm not sure what you mean mate. Stonebridge is the Croxteth site. I think the Major sees us as a potentially central part of a regeneration there.

 

[Sennott Street]

Is there any way for the elements of Archibald Leitch's designs to be incorporated into a modern stadium or are his designs simply obsolete?

 

[Stan Lee Park]

I think that is a fair post, you can certainly interchange the words "easy" with "realistic" dependant on your perspectives. I think what is realistic or possible is not a fixed thing. There is always space and opportunities to move things, close shops etc but understandably there will be a question of whether they want to do that. You have a guy here on goggle plus showing you could fit a 60k stadium in a fairly vacant space. Liverpool Waters is itself testament to the fact that nothing is impossible but it takes ambition, a clear plan and a persuasive case. They are building skyscrapers out of nothing.

I don't doubt that there is the potential to fit a Stadium along one of the docks along the front. The fact Kings Dock got so close says there is a chance. It will be very difficult. Some residents will be very upset, some shop owners may feel it takes trade away, matchdays will be massively chaotic in a busy area, the police may not want it, then you have the World Heritage stuff which is not only important in itself but the Council won't want to be seen to be undermining this as it does bring visitors. All of these things stand against us. They made it difficult and unrealistic especially in consideration to Croxteth. This is before you then allay fears of commercial partners, those you are buying the land off, people who you may have to move and other people involved in the project as to whether they want to be associated with you.

That doesn't make it impossible though. It also doesn't mean that the council are a benign impartial force in this, they clearly want Stonebridge redeveloped and a stadium to use for the bid. With the right business plan it can be done. We may have to put compromises in but for me they are worth it.

I don't disagree with you. All I would say is Stonebridge is more realistic but Liverpool Waters is far better.

Excellent post and puts the whole thing in perspective really.
The whole thing may still depend on how much backing we can get from Liverpool City Council. Personally, I would prefer us to have a stadium in Liverpool Waters, but I can see that Croxteth has some advantages - more space available, easier to get planning permission, closer to the motorway network, cheaper(?). Ultimately, if we had a choice between a 55,000 seater stadium on the Stonebridge site or a 45,000 seater stadium in Liverpool Waters that was more expensive and had a longer lead time, it would be an interesting choice to make.

 

[deipnosophist]

Do Liverpool FC/Everton FC 'divisions' spill over into council politics?

 

[ToffeeDoug]

...I don't disagree with you. All I would say is Stonebridge is more realistic but Liverpool Waters is far better.

Stonebridge = Koeman
Waterfront = Jose

 

[catcherintherye]

Excellent post and puts the whole thing in perspective really.
The whole thing may still depend on how much backing we can get from Liverpool City Council. Personally, I would prefer us to have a stadium in Liverpool Waters, but I can see that Croxteth has some advantages - more space available, easier to get planning permission, closer to the motorway network, cheaper(?). Ultimately, if we had a choice between a 55,000 seater stadium on the Stonebridge site or a 45,000 seater stadium in Liverpool Waters that was more expensive and had a longer lead time, it would be an interesting choice to make.

Thanks mate and you raised an important point too that it a very difficult and unrealistic option.

I'll be honest here, had we not changed the board over there's no way I think we'd have this conversation. People involved with Liverpool Waters would look at us and see we failed to pay for Kings Dock and got the begging bowl out for Kirkby. That is not the image they would want to associate with Liverpool Waters and we would be not have even been given a chance to present.

However Moshiri is a very successful man with lots of connections to successful people including in the steal industry. He has also sat on the board at Arsenal as they built the Emirates. Commercial partners may feel he can add something to the Waterfront.

As for your points there's little doubt that's it will be far cheaper to move to Stonebridge and the club would be able to put much more there. However it will always be a no brainer. If we could have a 45k stadium on the waterfront or any size stadium at Stonebridge with any infrastructure around it would still be a no brainer for me. It would be like a football team getting a stadium alongside the Houses of Parliament! The Liverpool sea front is an iconic image. It is having huge investment put into it to bring trade in and if we could be a part of that it would the club onto a new level. As I put earlier it would have the potential to be one of the most iconically situated sports venues in the world.

 

[TheFinnFan]

I'm not sure what you mean mate. Stonebridge is the Croxteth site. I think the Major sees us as a potentially central part of a regeneration there.

ok thanks that cleared it for me